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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by You Wont See Me You Wont See Me wrote:

Originally posted by Psyrecx Psyrecx wrote:

No, but there is a difference between being stealthy and being inconspicuous.



So everyone who uses stealth is a sniper? YAy all teh woodsballers are snipers.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 9:45pm

Originally posted by Unicorn Unicorn wrote:

I don't learn my tactics from TV. I'm not sniper qualitifed, but I do know a couple. One was a former Marine sniper instructor, the other is a former scout (and sniper) who is now in my unit. Did I mention that I have a total of 12 years in the Army and Army National Guard, most of it as an infantry (air assault and light) soldier, now a combat engineer (mechanised)? That's why I have a disdain for the wannabes who call themselves snipers.
Since you like to babble about shooting from concealed places, I guess that if during a squad or platoon ambush, if we only shot one shot each then we'd all be snipers? I guess that everytime an infantryman (or any MOS really) who uses cover and concealment could be sniper if they only shoot once, even in CQB or MOUT situations. WOW! We need to pass this on to the Infantry school at Ft. Benning, and MCB Quantico. They are wasting milions of dollars on sniper schools, to train snipers, when all they have to do is tell everyone to hide when they shoot.

Anyway, sort of mostly back on topic here.
Is it safe to shoot down at somebody? It's the same as shooting at a prone person, but I'm a bit afraid of hitting somebody in the edge of their goggles, and knocking them off, or at least low enough to expose their eyes.

They have to train snipers because not everyone can just pick up a gun and shoot it. Did you not read the part about being a skill marksmen .. or did your time in the national guard hamper youir ability to read?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 9:56pm
Just a note from a qualified, combat expierienced "sniper", the techniques of the skill are NOT readily adaptable to the short ranged, close combat world of paintball. Proven at many a scenario, and woods game by those who have encountered myself or attended any of my tactical lectures at the TWC series.

Reading a definition from the dictionary, and not knowing or having the basic skills required other than "hide and hope" does not make you a "paintball sniper".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:11pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Just a note from a qualified, combat expierienced "sniper", the techniques of the skill are NOT readily adaptable to the short ranged, close combat world of paintball. Proven at many a scenario, and woods game by those who have encountered myself or attended any of my tactical lectures at the TWC series.

Reading a definition from the dictionary, and not knowing or having the basic skills required other than "hide and hope" does not make you a "paintball sniper".

Right, but that doesn't mean it can't or doesn't exsist.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:32pm
It does mean that from a purely tactical application no one has applied the tenents of the skill with any effect in the sport. If qualified, trained and practiced "snipers" can not adapt thier training in the application within the game, how can an amateaur qualify the role and tactical tenent.

From an objective, and trained eye, the skill of sniper in a pure tactical tenent with the scope of the game of paintball, can't and doesn't exsist.

Basic tenent #1 of the skill is to engage your target from outside of immediate, accurate and effective return fire. Where within the scope of the game can the sniper be out of immediate, accurate, and effective return fire range when the balistics of paintball limit the range, trajectory, and cone of fire.

Basic tenent #2 is to position your hide outside of visual aquisition range (universally agreed upon as 250meters for the human eye to readily distinguish shape, and color contrast) using proper camoflauge, cover and concealment techniques, in order to prevent visual aquisition on the shot, and preventing immediate, accurate, and effective return fire.

To bad that part is not in then dictionary.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 April 2005 at 10:46pm

Every weapon has its limits. Even the best sniper rifle isnt perfect. Its how you use it. and the second part can easily be accomplished.

http://paintball.about.com/b/a/109591.htm



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:53am
Originally posted by Psyrecx Psyrecx wrote:

Every weapon has its limits. Even the best sniper rifle isnt perfect. Its how you use it. and the second part can easily be accomplished.


http://paintball.about.com/b/a/109591.htm



Sorry son, but that chain of acticles is worthless. As OS was saying, you can not effectively engage with any paintball gun from outside the range of accurate return fire. As long as everyone on the field is restricted to the same ballistics this will not change.

If an experienced veteran combat sniper tells you that the skills do not translate, what makes you think that you know better? Much less with other veterans, like myself, tell you the same thing. Reading books and watching movies are great, but are no substitute for experence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:03am

So pretty much by your statement if two snipers engage eachother that cancels them out as snipers because if they are using similar weapons then neither of them are outside eachothers range of fire. Experience is only as good as the person who experiences it. Furthermore, I can claim to be whatever I want on the internet as well. For all you know I could have been a sniper for longer than you or in the military for longer than you. So you can throw your "experiences" right out the window. Also not everyone is restricted to the same ballistics. Not all guns fire the same, not all paintballs fly the same. Some are more accurate some less. So tecnically you can shoot at somebody outside of their range of fire. Different combinations of equipment have different ranges of fire. Look at the stock Tippmann barrels vs the flatlines.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 8:16am
Of the 2 choices the trench would be better for cover, but if u would like to scare the crap out of them hide in the tree, and as long as u are going to go with the one shot one kill deal dont miss,lol
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 8:39am
Psyrecx, do yourself a favor, Son, please do not continue to insult yourself. I am a current member of OMHW one of the best scenario paintball teams in the nation, I have witnesses and those who play around me that will verify my expertese on this as well as other matters concerning Light Infantry tactics and techniques. 23years Light Infantry, Airborne Ranger etc with a DD214 to back it all up.

As for the "range" arguement, the flatline series does not truely increase range over straight barrels, it just lowers the trajectory arc to a more "flatline" at the same distance a straight barrel needs a high "sofball" arc to acomplish..
I was on Tippmanns Flatline project test group(combat expierience helps designers "idiotproof" designs so Joe Average paintballer can be assured of a working marker, was also on the A-5 test group, and Myself and Brad Stewart from Tippmann were the first players to use the prototype A-5's in a game enviorment, so there is a base to my knowledge on the subjects), and found the flatlines again only good for the standard 20-25m engagement ranges, out past that the spin with its increased drag co-efficient limited the impact energy to a no break velocity quicker than a straight barrel at the same distance. Did several chronograph and impact energy tests at selected ranges 10,15,20,25,30m and the results confirm impact energy of flatline fired rounds decreased at a higher rate past 20m than a standard straight barrel fired round, physics does not change.

As for counter sniper techniques all is well and good in a hollywood sense but the true skill can not compare to the hollywood interpatation. Seldom in the real world is there a true sniper on sniper engagement, for it does not usually meet mission perameters, when artillery is a lot cheaper to use in the long run. A base tenent of the skill is to engage targets based on tactical need be it physcological and or casualty producing. Snipers generally engage line units equiped with standard infantry/assault rifles with a max effective range of approximately 250m (see the releative point on the range) with specially designed longer ranged (800m +/-)and or accurized with a CEP of less than 1MOH. The shot is generally taken between 500-700m as a standard with an immediate displacement of the sniper team (owing to the now probable indirect fire from mortars or artillery on any suspected position, and the enemy can get lucky)

The average player should work more on TEAMWORK and small unit tactics rather than this misguided concept of paintball snipers. I prefere to engage our sniper wannabes because they are easy meat for a well trained and disiplined small unit using correct techniques in the close quarters world of paintball. And if there are "paintball snipers" out there my enemys "projected combat power" of the base unit is that much more diminished by the lone wolfs who DIP rather than act as part of the TEAM.

If you are interested in further reading go to the A5OG website and read some of my postings and excerpts from my old website, the Interdiction Rifleman article may be of interest to you and those who believe as you.

Edited by oldsoldier
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 10:09am
If you hide in a tree you had better take out your opponent with the first couple of shots or your screwed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 1:11pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

It does mean that from a purely tactical application no one has applied the tenents of the skill with any effect in the sport. If qualified, trained and practiced "snipers" can not adapt thier training in the application within the game, how can an amateaur qualify the role and tactical tenent.

From an objective, and trained eye, the skill of sniper in a pure tactical tenent with the scope of the game of paintball, can't and doesn't exsist.

Basic tenent #1 of the skill is to engage your target from outside of immediate, accurate and effective return fire. Where within the scope of the game can the sniper be out of immediate, accurate, and effective return fire range when the balistics of paintball limit the range, trajectory, and cone of fire.

Basic tenent #2 is to position your hide outside of visual aquisition range (universally agreed upon as 250meters for the human eye to readily distinguish shape, and color contrast) using proper camoflauge, cover and concealment techniques, in order to prevent visual aquisition on the shot, and preventing immediate, accurate, and effective return fire.

To bad that part is not in then dictionary.......

OS (and SrCrewchief later on) are mostly right.  They have also both had posts in other siniper-related threads where they explain the six criteria they believe necessary for someone to be a sniper in paintball and those criteria are right on the money.  When I say mostly right, it is only because I think they are a bit two adamant on their points; I'll explain below:

  • The anti-sniper crowd believes in the complete non-existence of snipers in paintball.  My problem with this is that it is impossible to prove the non-existence of something.  You can alway say that something exists and show it as proof; you can not say something does not exist and not show it as proof of it's non-existence.  In other words it is impossible to prove a negative.
  • I disagree that the flatline does not have a maximum effective range advantage over standard barrels and I base this five years experience with using one.  The testing/science that OS quotes in a later post would also support my observations.  Although this sounds contradictory, my personal theory is that balls fired from the flatline are more likely to break at longer ranges because of the angle at which the force of the paintball is applied to the target.  Most long range flatline shots are not glancing hits from above, but are straight on hits.
    • For the members of the pro-sniper crowd that are now dancing in glee that there is a sniper barrel in paintball, I now say the following:  The flatline is not long range sniper barrel.  The inherent inaccuracy of paintballs at the longer flatline ranges prevents consistent single shot eliminations. 
    • What the flatline is at long ranges, is a very effective weapon for providing suppressive fire.  I will also admit that some of the long range "paint breaking" advantage I referred to above may be due as much to the flatlines ability to consistently get paint in the same general area at those ranges as it is due to the angle of impact of the paint.  I just have no way to personally observe this so I can't say for sure.  (Although I have had opponents refer to several bounces along with the hit that broke.)
  • Probably the most significant area where I disagree with the anti-sniper crowd also involves the flatline.  While I maintain, that the flatline is not a long range sniper rifle, experience has shown it can be used as such at shorter ranges in the appropriate terrain.  In thick growth, which I play in often, I commonly engage other players in situations where I can hit them due to the flat trajectory provided by my barrel and they can't return effective fire because of the intervening branches, vines, etc.  There paint bursts harmlessly well in front of me. 
    • For you "snipers" out there, this does not make me a sniper.  Why?  Two main reasons:  I generally, make no effort to egress the area without further contact as I prefer instead to manuever in on them with other members of my team or to act as bait and draw them into an ambush.  Also I do not fire a single shot to limit their ability to locate me.  I prefer double-taps at targets to make sure they are out, then after I've eliminated the "sure-target" I like to engage whatever else is available.
    • Someone who met the critera of being a sniper on the other hand would take one target with one shot (from a barrel much quieter than my flatline) then cease fire to hinder the opponents' ability to pinpoint his location.  While the other team was still reacting to the initial elimination, the sniper would be withdrawing/repositioning to confuse/confound his opponents.

To make a long story short (which it is already to late for) I'll summarize.

I disagree with the anti-sniper folks for the following reasons:

  • It is impossible to prove a negative (i.e. "there are no snipers in paintball because I've never seen one".)
  • What I have seen is that the technology and skills are already present in the game (if used correctly)

I agree with the anti-sniper folks for the following reasons:

  • While the skills and technology exist, I have never seen anyone (myself included*) utilize them all correctly/simultaneously to be a paintball sniper**
  • All of the players I know who brag on their "sniper" skills do the following:
    • Only snipe when they are defending in a single flag game so they don't have to worry about tactics or being ambushed while they are setting up
    • Hide in the bushes, fire from out of range , miss, then run away to the center of an open field (because they fear being ambushed) rather than engage their opponents once fire is returned.  Of course, I could just be annoyed because they move faster than me and I don't feel like chasing them.

Conclusions: 

  • Someplace a paintball sniper exists, it is not however among the people on this forum who feel that the ability to quote a dictionary definition automatically confers upon them the ability to be a sniper in woodsball.  It is not among those who ignore the advice and wisdom of the military/ex-military professionals who graciously share their hard-earned knowledge on this forum. 
  • Everyone can call themselves whatever they want, but saying it does not make it so.  99.99% of the people who mount their soapbox to proclaim their sniperhood are campers who are afraid to risk taking a hit because of body/ego bruising.  They will either spend their entire day cowering in the brush or fleeing in circles around the field to avoid their opponents, with only the occasional lucky elimination of an unsuspecting newbie thrown in for variety.  The other 0.01% will be a joy to play against once I finally meet them.
    • For the snipers that are offended by my above statement:  Bummer.  Most rec-ballers will smile politely at you when you say "I'm a sniper", then wait for you to prove it on the field.  If you're good enough, they'll probably enjoy playing with/against you, if you're not, you'll be wearing a lot of their paint.

*I've been called a sniper by opponents, but I know better.  First, it wasn't sniping, it was an ambush.  Secondly, having done "sniper-type" missions in games where I had to do it to support my team, I found it very boring and decided it took the "rec" out of rec-ball.  I rate it as "no-fun-what-so-ever" and can't understand how the "snipers" that I described having observed earlier enjoy playing the game at all.

**Paintball sniper as opposed to sniper which is a military/law enforcement definition and requires specialized training/skills.  I sniper who played paintball could become a paintball sniper, the reverse is not necessarily true and is infact extremely unlikely.

 



Edited by Mack
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:11pm

**Deleted, and you are outta here!**



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 2:50pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Psyrecx, do yourself a favor, Son, please do not continue to insult yourself. I am a current member of OMHW one of the best scenario paintball teams in the nation, I have witnesses and those who play around me that will verify my expertese on this as well as other matters concerning Light Infantry tactics and techniques. 23years Light Infantry, Airborne Ranger etc with a DD214 to back it all up.

As for the "range" arguement, the flatline series does not truely increase range over straight barrels, it just lowers the trajectory arc to a more "flatline" at the same distance a straight barrel needs a high "sofball" arc to acomplish..
I was on Tippmanns Flatline project test group(combat expierience helps designers "idiotproof" designs so Joe Average paintballer can be assured of a working marker, was also on the A-5 test group, and Myself and Brad Stewart from Tippmann were the first players to use the prototype A-5's in a game enviorment, so there is a base to my knowledge on the subjects), and found the flatlines again only good for the standard 20-25m engagement ranges, out past that the spin with its increased drag co-efficient limited the impact energy to a no break velocity quicker than a straight barrel at the same distance. Did several chronograph and impact energy tests at selected ranges 10,15,20,25,30m and the results confirm impact energy of flatline fired rounds decreased at a higher rate past 20m than a standard straight barrel fired round, physics does not change.

As for counter sniper techniques all is well and good in a hollywood sense but the true skill can not compare to the hollywood interpatation. Seldom in the real world is there a true sniper on sniper engagement, for it does not usually meet mission perameters, when artillery is a lot cheaper to use in the long run. A base tenent of the skill is to engage targets based on tactical need be it physcological and or casualty producing. Snipers generally engage line units equiped with standard infantry/assault rifles with a max effective range of approximately 250m (see the releative point on the range) with specially designed longer ranged (800m +/-)and or accurized with a CEP of less than 1MOH. The shot is generally taken between 500-700m as a standard with an immediate displacement of the sniper team (owing to the now probable indirect fire from mortars or artillery on any suspected position, and the enemy can get lucky)

The average player should work more on TEAMWORK and small unit tactics rather than this misguided concept of paintball snipers. I prefere to engage our sniper wannabes because they are easy meat for a well trained and disiplined small unit using correct techniques in the close quarters world of paintball. And if there are "paintball snipers" out there my enemys "projected combat power" of the base unit is that much more diminished by the lone wolfs who DIP rather than act as part of the TEAM.

If you are interested in further reading go to the A5OG website and read some of my postings and excerpts from my old website, the Interdiction Rifleman article may be of interest to you and those who believe as you.

Insulting myself, your the one who keeps dispelling things because they rarely happen, no matter how little the chance something may happend it is still possible. But you would rather say it doesn't exsist than admit the possiblitiy. You said so yourself seldom do snipers encounter and engage each other. Seldom still means it occationally happens. Maybe the next thing you should buy before you go back and play with your teammates at OHMW is a clue.



Edited by Psyrecx

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:11pm

Back to the subject… I went up in a tree once, to get on my roof. I then ran across, hopped down the other side and successfully flanked my opponents. Other then shooting over the top of something like a fence I would never go into a tree – no good with ranged weapons.

 

Psyrecx there is no program to qualify anyone as a paintball sniper for a reason. 90% of you couldn’t hit a pie pan at 100 yards with an M-1 much less even qualify as riflemen. I would love to see your range finding skills. For paintball if you work it as a MOA thing; hitting a large postage stamp at 25 meters on 4 out of 5 shots is like hitting a 20” silhouette at 500 yards. That is about as close as you could get to even calling yourself a paintball rifleman.

How many hours did you lay in shooting position to eliminate the team captain in your last game? It doesn't happen. You don’t drag your marker in a bag on the ground behind you. Come on… this is paintball. As for camouflage and concealment I have a suggestion. Go to the left side of the cover you are behind, slice the pie around the edge and give some suppressing fire to your teammates who aren’t afraid to run out and get hit by paintballs to make plays!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:37pm
Mr Psyrecx: Detailing from your vast wealth of knowledge on the subject, maybe it is you who should and I quote: "Get a Clue".

In order to prove the assumtions you have put forth obviously a skill demonstration is required. OMHW along with myself will be at the Wretched 7 Challenge, Realms Of Ruin Paintball Park, Joliet Illinois Aug 20/21, for our annual whole Team Game. Please feel free to come and demonstrate and possibly prove your therories against a well trained and disiplined Team. Myself as well as 2 members of my old LRRP (CoN, 75th Infantry, 173rd Airborne Brigade) team of 35years ago will demonstrate and instruct on proper small unit techniques and give a demonstration of proper sniper hide and tactical applications (which still can not be readily adapted to paintball).

As for the probability of an actual "paintball sniper" in exsistance, nothing is impossible, but in the years 1988-present, I have been playing the "Game" from NY to California, I have seen many attempt the skill, many quite close but the true application of the skill, as referenced in many a tactical manual from military and law enforcement circles, can not be performed with the technology of present within the scope of the game. I can honestly say I have never seen, encountered or been engaged by a true "paintball sniper". Even I have tried with my training and skills to adapt some aspect of the skill with little or no appreciable advantage over being one each basic rifleman using the basic skills of an Infantryman in close quarters combat.

By the way just for Grins and Giggles my book with the proposed title "Playing the Game" An Oldsoldiers Guide to Paintball, is in its final prep for publication so many Paintball Writers and now even many Paintball Equipment Companys, out there do see a value in the subject matter from someone who has BTDT, and probably before you were born.

Again RoR Game Aug 20/21 please show us poor Veteran Infantryman how to truely play the "Game"........


Edited by oldsoldier
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:37pm
ah here comes oldsoldier to pwn all
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:43pm
Did I say anywhere that I was claiming to be a sniper. See I was right .. it is you who need the clue not me. Also this is paintball, you do not need to qualify to do anything really. You can claim to be whatever you want, if a sniper is what you want to be then I say try your best to do so. Realisticly this is paintball not the reall military. OS your not a real soldier. Your a wannabe, get over it.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 5:50pm
Again another bit of wisdom from a resident 14 year old armed with daddy's credit card and a concept.....again Realms of Ruin, Aug 20/21.....Be there, I will.....and I have those who have seen me do "My Thing" on the fields, and many stop, listen and learn.....have you read the A5OG forum...Ask many there who have played with or against me, I am, was and allways will be a soldier, and I do pride myself in the teaching of the next group coming up the basics, and do it quite well....

You "Talk the Talk, now lets see you Walk the Walk"......

Have a Great Day......................

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 April 2005 at 6:02pm
RoR huh? I might have to check that out. I'll have my liscense by then...
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