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Report: 2004 Election Corrupted |
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Clark Kent 
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Joined: 02 July 2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8716 |
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 Topic: Report: 2004 Election CorruptedPosted: 08 April 2005 at 9:24am |
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Proof that you have never played golf with CEOs... :)
Seriously, though, while there certainly may a criminal or two in high corporate office, this type of thing just doesn't happen in America's business world. This type of conversation just doesn't happen. The corporate leaders of America just aren't a bunch of criminals. That idea is just false.
Aggressive accounting? Yes. Questionable payments to foreign governments? Yes. The occasional price-fixing? VERY rarely, but yes. A little inside information shared among friends? Yes, but only among the stupid. But rigging an election? It's just the wrong kind of crime. This is not what American corporate leaders do. Yes, it is possible that a board member would do such a thing, but it is no more likely than a random other person doing such a thing - probably, IMO, much less so.
The agent, yes, the company, no - because the employee was NOT acting on behalf of the company. It is just an individual who happens to be associated with a company. If you commit a murder that happens to benefit your boss, is your employer somehow liable? Even if you did it to impress your boss? Of course not - that just makes you a regular murderer.
Not splitting hairs at all. People today are very happy to casually blame "the corporations", which is essentially a meaningless phrase. There is always a person at the end. If that person acted as if the corporation was backing him, then the corporation may be culpable - but if an individual rigs an election without the knowledge of anybody else - how then is the employer liable?
Again, you are just wrong about corporate culture. This comment simply makes no sense in the American business world. This just isn't how it works.
Actually, the opposite is true.
In the evolution discussion, my point was that when choosing between two options, both of which are a priori improbable, one should choose the one that is LESS improbable.
I am making a similar point here, except that we have one explanation that is a priori improbable (cheating), and another explanation which is not improbable at all (that Bush was simply elected).
When choosing between a probable explanation and an improbable explanation (for which there is absolutely no evidence), we should choose the probable explanation.
Is it possible that the Ohio machines were rigged? Sure - but we have no actual reason to believe so. Most of the "evidence" relies on silly conspiracy theories straight out of Fahrenheit 9/11, such as what you posted, and these theories, frankly, show a complete ignorance of the daily functionings of corporate America.
Heck, I'm just trying to imagine pushing through the reimbursement request for "$500,000 cash to bribe programmer to fix Ohio voting machines".
:)
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 07 April 2005 at 4:07pm |
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I agree 100%-it would be held behind closed doors, or at a golf course, with no "official" ties to the the company.
You are splitting hairs. An agent acting on behalf of the company is culpable.
This is the reason middle level executives and managers exist. They want to get to the top, and supply plausible deniability for those that are calling the shots. The people who know about their clandestine work reward them handsomely, not publicly.
I can agree with that.
You know that we are taking, essentially, each other's position from the ID debate. I'm saying that the proof justifies the existence, and you are saying that it is too complex to happen. I must go to work now, so I will try to post my next argument in the next couple days.
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty |
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Homer J
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Posted: 07 April 2005 at 4:18am |
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Wal-Mart Man for President 2008.
If I'm faced with a choice for president that sucks, and another choice that also sucks, I'll seriously write in Wal-Mart Man. I have no faith in the two-party system. Edited by Homer J |
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Badsmitty
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Posted: 07 April 2005 at 4:04am |
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Clark, I had heard that corporations can now claim 5th amendment protection. Is this true? If it is, are you so sure that corporation are not "people with motives?"
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BARREL BREAK
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Prettiest Princess in all the lands Joined: 08 September 2003 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 10662 |
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 10:06pm |
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The elctoral college system is trash. |
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Shub
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I don’t have one either. Is that good??? Joined: 11 June 2002 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6453 |
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 10:04pm |
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There were also reports on election day of machines that arrived in Philadephia with votes already registered for Sen. Kerry. |
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Clark Kent
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 9:51pm |
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It's on my list - I'll get to it eventually... (I have a long list) :)
I am following the money, just in greater detail. Did a GW victory benefit some industry sectors? Clearly.
I am talking much more nitty-gritty. I can absolutely promise you that the board of directors at Halliburton did not have a discussion about rigging any elections. Those guys are mostly quasi-outsiders, and get paid relatively little, and certainly don't want to go to jail and get sued for a zillion dollars. There is absolutely no way there is an open discussion in the board room about paying off a programmer to tweak a voting machine. It just wouldn't happen. This is not shady accounting or a shady payment in a foreign country that may or may not be legal - this is outright election fraud, and no way around it. The guys on the Halliburton board just won't be talking about it.
So, without board approval, there is no corporate authorization, as such an illegal act is clearly outside of the authority of any officer or employee of the corporation. The corporation, therefore, had no intentional part in any fraud.
Now, could an enterprising senior officer at Halliburton have done this on his own? Much less unlikely. But again - why? If it is for personal political goals, that makes some sense (but again takes it out of the corporate arena). But otherwise? To benefit the shareholders of the corporation? That seems a bit too altruistic. To get a promotion? Unlikely, since he could never ever tell anybody about it.
Presumably, however, this officer is a significant shareholder of Halliburton stock, and might do so for personal economic gain. More possible. Although again this has little to do with the company, and is more of an individual thing - heck, this theory could apply equally to Warren Buffett, or any other non-employee shareholder. Why limit ourselves to shareholders who might be working at Halliburton? In fact, I am confident that the teachers' union retirement fund (one of the largest investment vehicles in the world) owns Halliburton stock. Wouldn't they also be motivated to commit this fraud for the benefit of the company?
Follow the money indeed - all the way. "The company" is ultimately made up of shareholders and employees, all of whom are ultimately people. There is no "company" that has an independent will. For most of the people who work for Halliburton, that only means a paycheck. Many of the people who benefit most from Halliburton's success have no direct association with the company.
(The argument gets a little more complicated with privately held companies like Bechtel, but the basics will apply even there)
But official corporate involvement? Absolutely not. Who benefits? The board certainly will not - not enough to offset the risks. There would be too many people involved in such a conspiracy - SOMEBODY would blow the whistle.
And then the logistics of implementation. This is a very delicate process - you have to somehow get the code in the machines changed (untraceably), and changed such that with no further involvement (once the machines are out you are done tweaking) they will delicately throw the election in Bush's direction - enough to make a difference, but not so much that anybody will notice. And, of course, you need the election to come down to the states/districts where you have tweaked the machines. Boy it would suck to go to all that trouble and still lose the election...
And there is the bottom line - you have an extremely risky ploy, involving WAY too many people, which might not even succeed, has limited payoff for the people involved if it DOES succeed, and will result in absolute personal and financial calamity for the people involved if discovered.
I just don't buy it.
Now, much more likely, IMO, is a sole programmer tweaking the code for giggles or political preference. Such a thing could easily happen, and might even impact an election. Hardly the same as this big conspiracy.
Again, the payoffs for "the companies" is a bit irrelevant. Companies are not people - companies don't have motives.
As to the CEO connection - that's just politics at work. Check any government, in any democratic country, for at least the last 50 years. Industry leaders and politicians exchange positions all the time. Who would you rather have as energy secretary than somebody who has worked the energy sector for 40 years? It is obvious that government officials are chummy with industry officials - those are the circles of power. It provides NO evidence of anything shady.
Seriously - check ANY recent government. Any administration benefits some companies and sectors more than others - that's a tautology. Every administration will also have members who were former industry leaders or personal friends, or both - that's just how power works. Clinton appointed childhood buddies to posts all over the world. He appointed school buddies to other posts. These are not bad things.
Does anybody doubt that D.Chaney is a qualified leader or manager? The man has loads of experience. So do our secretaries of defense and transportation, for instance. Wouldn't you want an airline guy to head up transportation?
Power is a small club. Overlap is inevitable.
There is no conspiracy. There just isn't.
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Badsmitty
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 9:21pm |
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Let us not forget the Patriot Act that not one single terrorist has been prosecuted under, although American citizens have. And of course, same sex marriage which magically showed up on the ballots of 11 states. Lastly there was Iraq. No WMD's no terrorists on 9/11. Maybe O.S. is on to something when he commented about uneducated Red State Bible Thumpers. But, like Jesus said when being questioned by the first right-wing evangelicals "you have said it" (not me).
Edited by Badsmitty |
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 9:12pm |
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Clark,
If you have not read "Confessions of an economic hit man", do so. Although I warn you it will make you physically ill the first day you read it.
As far as who is to gain from rigging the election, follow the money. Carlysle is benefitting from a pipeline across Afghanistan that they could never get the rights to prior to our invasion. GHW Bush gets paid stupid money as an adviser to Carlysle. Next are the big construction outfits, such as Halliburton, Bechtel, and Brown and Root. Not to mention the oil companies wanting to get rights to drill in Iraq. The above mentioned companies have had a former president or CEO in the very top levels of government for years. The consideration of rigged elections is not far-fetched, it is highly probable, given the payoff for these companies.
With that said, I don't believe that rigging the elections was necessary in '04. The Whitehouse used the "terror alert" system, small pox, and missing russian nukes to scare people near to death. Amazingly, all of those threats went away mid-November :O
*edit* and the "little guy" is me and 99.9999% of the population. We are powerless in the direction that our country is going. Guys like Cheney, GHW Bush, and George Shulz to name a few pull the big strings in this country. I think that they need to only be popular enough to cast a shadow of validity of any election; unless they are loathed by 75% of the population, they can get away with rigging the election.
After spending one third of my life serving my country as a soldier, I am now convinced that I am a bug to the men who really run this country, and the best I can hope for is to make it a peaceful retirement with what I can scratch together without being hauled off by the brownshirts. I could be in Guantanamo Bay tomorrow, and they would convince everyone that I was a terrorist by Friday. Edited by goodsmitty |
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty |
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The Guy
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 8:42pm |
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Hey OS, how are you hooking up to the internet? Do they have ethernet at truckstops?
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 8:04pm |
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Hey Badsmitty.....
If our "Leaders" are "smart" enough to "rig" an election, what does that say about the DNC leadership...guess they are not "smart" enough...even with all that education and all that Democratic money (ohh sorry only Republicans are rich, No Democrat can be rich by thier own admission only Republican money is evil) And good luck to the left with the soon to be launched "Huffington Report" should be some totally non-biased views there...again only conservatives are biased, so says the Blue Staters... And who really cares who wins elections when soon the non elected judiciary can rule by thier interptatation of the Constitution anyway, no elected leader or elected body can tell a Judge what the law is or what to do anyway .............................. Also seems like the locals are getting restless again... Have fun...me and momma are on the road having a blast...she is doing the bills, and I get to spout my biased conservative republican views to contaminate the masses...till she says she needs laptop... Edited by oldsoldier |
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Ejp414
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 7:45pm |
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Christ, there are only three periods in an ellipsis. ...you have no idea how much that bothers me. ------------------- Oh, that and the whole overly partisan thing—you really need to get over that. Maybe even talk to some Democrats or turn the dial from talk radio for once... You see, there are three kinds of people: those who argue by event, those who argue by ideology, and those who argue by party. For example, Clark Kent will argue by event. He is willing to examine the facts of a case every time to consider how he views it. He makes sure that the information he digests about the event is relatively unbiased and honest. Then you have people like me, who tend to not keep up with the specific events of politics as much. I develop my own ideology about what is right and wrong, and my opinion is formed accordingly. The reason I choose to think this way as opposed to how Clark thinks is that I do not know how to find enough truly honest information on many topics. Finally, there are those who pick a side and vacuously berate anyone who they consider not on that side. From reading your post, I can honestly claim to only see empty angst and potshots rather than any evaluation of events or ideology, and all of the tirade focuses not on what is right/wrong concerning the event but rather on the perceived faults of "them." Welcome to those who argue by party. And using the word "edumacated" doesn't sound witty at all. Edited by Ejp414 |
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Badsmitty
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 7:37pm |
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No one said that you poor, uneducated, Red State Bible Thumpers were smart enough to rig an election. The accusation is against your leaders. |
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The Crimson
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 6:59pm |
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^^^ You forever have my respect.
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To Become
What I Became I've viewed the sun for the last time |
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oldsoldier
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 6:03pm |
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Yep and it took the Illegal Alien (Space Type) to bring the Ohio vote over to Bush, Just ask the National Inquirer....and they will have witnesses and pictures to prove it......(just as idiotic as the initial claim in this posting)
Get over it, try again in 08, and try to have a candidate with a little intestinal fortitude to stand on one side of an issue...it does help...... Hillary in 08, now there is a winner or whiner after the loss, but we again will blame us poor, uneducated, Red State Bible Thumpers............who are "smart" enough to rig an election that all those college edumacated Liberal Democrats can't seem to fix themselves, except for the Daley family in Chicago, maybe the DNC should take notes next time......... Permission from momma to post.... |
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DBibeau855
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 2:24pm |
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Im not a rightist! Im very republican, but i know when enough is enough. Everyone knows if you lean too far to the right or to the left, you will fall over.. IE faciest Italy. Comunist Russia. |
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Ejp414
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 1:22pm |
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Why is there confusion? A good half of the liberals I know are nuts. If you have little to no idea about what you're arguing, then it shouldn't matter if your parents like Republicans better or not. |
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DBibeau855
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 12:00pm |
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I do love me an extendable baton.
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Dune
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 11:47am |
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It's true, although I love the Asp, nothing like an extendable baton swung into the rib cage that says "halt, we need to speak with you." |
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goodsmitty
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Posted: 06 April 2005 at 11:45am |
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Scarbrain gets the award for the obligatory flame without reading the topic. The sad thing is that I cannot laugh at his hardship when his generation suffers due to rigged elections and an out of control political system, because that would be evil. Kind of like Dune not being able to enjoy macing people in the face. |
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"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty |
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