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Terry Schiavo

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:31am

First -

The law in Florida (and in most other states, I believe) is very clear.  "Living wills" are very explicitly provided for.  If in fact Teri told her husband to pull the plug (let's all believe him for the moment and assume she really did this), then the law would pretty clearly require that we follow her request.

I know for certain that my living will (yes, I have one) would specifically direct my trustee to end life support in this type of situation.  Who are we to overrule Teri on this matter?  This is what she wanted.  I would certainly be pissed if somebody overruled my living (except that I would be vegetative).

Second -

This IS what vegetative looks like.  Yes, she moves and blinks.  Did you guys see the video clips of that Egyptian(?) girl that had an extra head removed from her skull?  Creepiest damned thing.  This head had eyes and everything - they eyes would blink, they would trace, and the mouth would occasionally smile.  But that head had no upper brain.  Just because there are movements doesn't mean it isn't a vegetative state.  When there is no movement, we call that a coma.

 

Other than doubts about what Teri did or did not say, this whole thing is a crock.  There is a law on the books, which was being enforced as written, until Congress and Jeb Bush came along to meddle.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:50am
When you are married. Your spouse becomes your protector.

"In sickness and in health."

"Till death do us part."

Nuff said. She should be alowed to die.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:12am
I have mixed feeling about this.

If it was her will to die rather than live under these circumstances I am slightly for allowing her to die.  It was her wish.

But what if she didnt acctually say what her husband said?  What if he lied, forgot, dreamed it, or became confused?

And even if she did say that, whats to say she didnt change her mind between the time she said it and had a comma?

I would rather her not die for the same reasons illustrated by Senn, but I am still iffy on the whole matter.

EDIT : Curse you Kent!  Now I am being more open-minded, how I am supposed to think!?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 5:33am
She is being used as a pawn in a much larger game.  Those of you who are growing weepy comparing her to Old Yeller and Rin Tin Tin and disregarding the laws of Florida have now become pieces on the same game board.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:33am
Originally posted by AdmiralSenn AdmiralSenn wrote:

I haven't confirmed this yet (pending some spare time) but supposedly there are recordings within the last week of Terry conversing. I have the links, but haven't played with them yet.

I'd rather keep her alive. I imagine this: My dad is a diabetic (true). Say he was in the hospital, in a coma and hadn't spoken for weeks, and was by all accounts going to die. Removing life support would stop what pain he is aware of. Would I do it?

No. There is always the possibility that there will be a cure, or a person will suddenly snap out of their condition, and they may go on to do great things with their added years (incidentally, this is very similar to part of my stance on abortion).

Even if they do allow her to die, starvation is one of the more cruel ways to do it that isn't barred by the Geneva Conventions. It's essentially euthanasia, except that the doctor isn't directly killing the patient, but it amounts to the same thing. If it's legal to allow someone to die after a medical procedure that if left undone would help the person to survive, then euthanasia is next. Within fifty years we could see the death penalty enforced for even minor crimes, then aborting any children not in our population quota, etc. (If this sounds extreme, keep in mind that Clark Kent and I still occasionally argue over a document quoting Thomas Jefferson's personal correspondence. That document is still used as a legal precedent for actions. A decision like this is even more concrete. If a personal letter can lead to what some consider a double standard in religious policy, a court decision could do the things I have outlined much more easily).

Remember that I don't expect any of that to happen, but they become substantially more likely as cases like this crop up.

From what I have read, Terry is not vegetative and even if she did state her wish to die, it was only if she was vegetative. Pending my listening to these files, I contend that she should be kept alive.

(Note: The information contained in this post is not intended to start a debate. If you want to, send me a PM, don't hijack this thread).


the only problem with this is that shes NOT in a coma, she's become mentally retarded.  of course people can snap out of coma's, but retardation is extremely(if not impossible in alot of cases) difficult to correct
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheSpookyKids87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 7:44am
I was for pulling the feeding tube but now I'm not sure after reading these posts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:12am

Originally posted by AdmiralSenn AdmiralSenn wrote:

I haven't confirmed this yet (pending some spare time) but supposedly there are recordings within the last week of Terry conversing. I have the links, but haven't played with them yet.

I'd rather keep her alive. I imagine this: My dad is a diabetic (true). Say he was in the hospital, in a coma and hadn't spoken for weeks, and was by all accounts going to die. Removing life support would stop what pain he is aware of. Would I do it?

No. There is always the possibility that there will be a cure, or a person will suddenly snap out of their condition, and they may go on to do great things with their added years (incidentally, this is very similar to part of my stance on abortion).

Even if they do allow her to die, starvation is one of the more cruel ways to do it that isn't barred by the Geneva Conventions. It's essentially euthanasia, except that the doctor isn't directly killing the patient, but it amounts to the same thing. If it's legal to allow someone to die after a medical procedure that if left undone would help the person to survive, then euthanasia is next. Within fifty years we could see the death penalty enforced for even minor crimes, then aborting any children not in our population quota, etc. (If this sounds extreme, keep in mind that Clark Kent and I still occasionally argue over a document quoting Thomas Jefferson's personal correspondence. That document is still used as a legal precedent for actions. A decision like this is even more concrete. If a personal letter can lead to what some consider a double standard in religious policy, a court decision could do the things I have outlined much more easily).

Remember that I don't expect any of that to happen, but they become substantially more likely as cases like this crop up.

From what I have read, Terry is not vegetative and even if she did state her wish to die, it was only if she was vegetative. Pending my listening to these files, I contend that she should be kept alive.

(Note: The information contained in this post is not intended to start a debate. If you want to, send me a PM, don't hijack this thread).

1. Part of the reason that the judge ruled in favor of pulling the tube is because a team of doctors had pronounced her as vegetative with no hope of recovery. I do not believe that she has been conversing.

2. No, there is no possibility of a cure for her in her lifetime. Her brain went without oxygen when she went into cardiac arrest. Brain cells (neurons) do no re-form. You are born with all that you have. I see this all of the time in the ICU; people go into cardiac arrest, are resuscitated, and lose their short term memory forever due to lack of oxygen.

3. Pulling her feeding tube, which is inserted through her belly is not the same as starving her to death. She cannot survive without artificially-supplied nutrition (LIFE SUPPORT). Without that tube she dies a NATURAL DEATH.

It is what she wanted, she did not want life support (feeding tube), and doctors have confirmed that she is a vegetable. Her husband stood by her for three years before starting his life over with another woman, so let's all cut him some slack.

Question: Why is the U.S. congress getting into this family squabble?

Answer: So Bush and the GOP can secure more do-gooder votes in the next election.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScarFace22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 8:59am

Originally posted by DarkMachine5 DarkMachine5 wrote:

 She said she wanted to die if that ever happened. And Many doctors and judges say that she has no chance of recovering and that she doesnt respond to anything.  So i think if the husband wants to remove then tube i guess he should.

 For they lazy

BS BS and more BS. First off she never physically said that she wants to die, there is no proof of it at all. The only person who wants her to die is her husband because hes afraid the police will find out how he abused her and controlled her life like the psycopath he is. He also wants her to die because he'll get 1.3 million dollars. Secondly physical and speech therapy  doctors who have looked at her said they have helped people in worse cases then her so there is a definite chance of recovery. Good job falling into all the false BS that the moronic liberals fed you.

I think that its a joke that they're starving her to death and I think both the first judge that took the feeding tube out and the second judge who just decided not to put it back in should be shot. Its inhumane to starve and dehidrate someone to death. While all of you sit home on your lazy butts not doing anything and getting food and water when you want this lady is dying. You will  never know what it is to be starving to death. For you people who think the feeding tube being taken out is the right choice why don't you talk to some of the jews that were in Auswitz, Dauchu, and Buchenwald and they'll tell you what its like to starve and thirst to death. I bet after you talk to them you'll change your mind. What they're doing is no better then what the Nazis did to the jews..but I guess the goverment thinks its ok because its one person not 6 million. I think this country a freaking joke.



Edited by ScarFace22

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:20am
Originally posted by ScarFace22 ScarFace22 wrote:

BS BS and more BS. First off she never pysically said that she wants to die, there is no proof of it at all. The only person who wants her to die is her husband because hes afraid the police will find out how he abused her and controlled her life like the psycopath he is. He also wants her to die because he'll get 1.3 million dollars.

And you know this... how?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:24am

She isnt going to be in pain when they take the tube out, her organs will just shut down like in a natural death. Doctors have said that.

But oh wait, im sure thats just some liberal doctor making things up, right Scarface>?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:30am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by ScarFace22 ScarFace22 wrote:

BS BS and more BS. First off she never pysically said that she wants to die, there is no proof of it at all. The only person who wants her to die is her husband because hes afraid the police will find out how he abused her and controlled her life like the psycopath he is. He also wants her to die because he'll get 1.3 million dollars.

And you know this... how?

Not only that, but her husband has been offered millions of dollars by multiple parties to just walk away and hand control over to her parents. That would seem to be a much easier way out.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 11:32am
Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:


1. Part of the reason that the judge ruled in favor of pulling the tube is because a team of doctors had pronounced her as vegetative with no hope of recovery. I do not believe that she has been conversing.


2. No, there is no possibility of a cure for her in her lifetime. Her brain went without oxygen when she went into cardiac arrest. Brain cells (neurons) do no re-form. You are born with all that you have. I see this all of the time in the ICU; people go into cardiac arrest, are resuscitated, and lose their short term memory forever due to lack of oxygen.


3. Pulling her feeding tube, which is inserted through her belly is not the same as starving her to death. She cannot survive without artificially-supplied nutrition (LIFE SUPPORT). Without that tube she dies a NATURAL DEATH.


It is what she wanted, she did not want life support (feeding tube), and doctors have confirmed that she is a vegetable. Her husband stood by her for three years before starting his life over with another woman, so let's all cut him some slack.


Question: Why is the U.S. congress getting into this family squabble?


Answer: So Bush and the GOP can secure more do-gooder votes in the next election.



1. I don't know that she is conversing, but there are a lot of people who say that she is. I just listened to a recording of her father speaking to her. Although she couldn't articulate, it did sound as if she was aware of his presence, and I think she managed to say 'hi' at one point. It's mostly unintelligible groaning, but I'd say she's at least conscious enough to detect human presence.

Audio file

After hearing this, I was saddened by her condition, but it's not enough to convince me that she should die.

2. No, a cure is still possible. We only know that we don't know of a way to save her. Since nobody is entirely sure how the brain even works, that possibility can't be discounted. There is also no cure for diabetes or cancer, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. For all we know there is in fact a way to create new brain cells naturally that we haven't found yet.

3. A natural death that can be prevented. Should we shut down all hospitals because it's unnatural to save lives?

Your statement doesn't make any sense. Removing her only method of sustenance isn't starvation? I thought the whole argument was that she would 'die a natural death by starvation'. The problem is that this natural death requires an action on the part of someone else (removing the feeding tube) as surely as keeping her alive does (by feeding her). Just because something would happen on its own does not make it natural. In this case, she can be saved, but removing the tube required somebody's decision. Witholding care from a person does not make their death natural, regardless of their condition.

I don't know your opinion on the Hippocratic oath, but (references to Greek gods and goddesses aside) it's pretty clear on this. Read up on it if you've never read it (again, I don't know, don't take offense at this if you're a Greek scholar or something).

And we A. do not know if she would have preferred death except from her husband (this has already been beaten to death), and B. doctors have been wrong in numerous cases. I forget which of the controversy threads it's in, but somebody posted a few examples of people that doctors said would die soon and made full recoveries. I know of several such accounts myself.

I'm not even going to respond to political comments. They may even be accurate, but that's not what this is about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:12pm

Sorry for the political comments, but it really is none of congress' business.

Let me answer your post by number:

1. I can go either way on this issue, because children with cerebral palsy cannot take care of themselves, have a PEG tube for their feedings, and we do not pull the plug on them.

2. Not in your or my lifetime is there any hope for a cure to brain injuries. The only hope on the horizon is stem cell research, but we cannot even come close to curing the simplest of disease, such as diabetes that involves only creating one type of cell in the pancreas. Making a network of neurons that can function as a brain is another thing entirely.

3. I agree that it is up to the individual. I deal with these situations daily as an ICU nurse. There are people that we maintain on life support and run up million dollar hospital bills before they die. There are others who see the futility in their situation and pull the plug.

A. I do not know about Florida law, but if she were in Ohio, we would have pulled the plug 15 years ago when the husband said to.

B. Yes, doctors have been wrong before. But not in this case, it is a brain injury and neurons (brain cells) do not repair or relace themselves. Bad news for the ongoing stoner thread, they are a smart as they will ever get, but not as dumb.



Edited by goodsmitty
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by goodsmitty goodsmitty wrote:


2. Not in your or my lifetime is there any hope for a cure to brain injuries. The only hope on the horizon is stem cell research, but we cannot even come close to curing the simplest of disease, such as diabetes that involves only creating one type of cell in the pancreas. Making a network of neurons that can function as a brain is another thing entirely.



B. Yes, doctors have been wrong before. But not in this case, it is a brain injury and neurons (brain cells) do not repair or relace themselves. Bad news for the ongoing stoner thread, they are a smart as they will ever get, but not as dumb.



Down to 2 and B.

2. I'm trying to say that tomorrow there may be some miraculous discovery that repairs the human brain. Penicillin was discovered by accident. There is plenty of hope for a cure. Just because we don't know about it doesn't mean it's hopeless.

B. I never said replacing themselves. I was thinking a treatment that might cause the brain to create new ones despite its age. I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty sure that eventually, be it tomorrow or the year 2473, someone will find a way to repair the brain.... relating this to the original point B, this would prove doctors/medical theory wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote B_Wet A-5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:01pm
my friends dad was in the same situation and they decided to take him off the life support thingy and he past away. but it was his decision he had very little time to live so he didnt want to suffer ne more so he pretty much pulled the plug on himself to stop the pain. really sad though,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ScarFace22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

She isnt going to be in pain when they take the tube out, her organs will just shut down like in a natural death. Doctors have said that.

But oh wait, im sure thats just some liberal doctor making things up, right Scarface>?

Are you that stupid! How can she not be in pain shes freaking starving to death. Your a moron.

Clark: Its been brought up many times by the media that she has physical marks of abuse and he would get money. You know what thats called..its called an MO a motive. He has a good enough modtive to want her dead.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by ScarFace22 ScarFace22 wrote:

Are you that stupid! How can she not be in pain shes freaking starving to death. Your a moron.

 

Becuase her brain has the functioning power of tapioca pudding. And shes not getting any better.

Why not just let the poor woman die. Im tired of seeing the government use this situation to further its agenda. The family and others have offered the husband money to walk away. Trust me, here in Florida this story has been big before CNN and other big networks got ahold of it. Not to mention that parents are more attached, but the husband was closer. If you can show me some proof of the 'Abuse' then fine, but if not then just shut up about it.

Also I love the fact that you cant manage to get through one post without calling somebody a name. Becuase we all know calling somebody 'stupid' and a 'moron' gets your point across so much better.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by ScarFace22 ScarFace22 wrote:


He has a good enough modtive to want her dead.



No he does not. They offered him millions to divorse her, money is not what he is after. Everyone thinking that should just be ashamed of themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote usafpilot07 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 3:21pm
its not going to matter unless they make a ruling today, its day five w/o food or water, yea you can live almost a month w/o food, but 6 days w/o water is nearly impossible
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 3:33pm
I think Terri should be allowed to live because she's more self-aware than half of you....

But in all seriousness, it's issues like this that are making me get fed up with Republicans, conservatives, etc (even though I largely count myself as one).

Think about this, everyone who's saying, "Zomg, he'll get money for it if she dies! Murder plotz0rz!!"
He's been dealing with her hospital bills for 15 years. You think that's cheap? Heck no. From all media reports I've seen, he's essentially broke.
So what if he got a girlfriend after 3 years of her being vegetative? None of you can tell me that you wouldn't get lonely.
As TKD said, she will feel no pain because she does not have the capacity to feel pain OR ANYTHING. SHE IS BRAIN DEAD.
I don't buy anything about her conversing. If you're hopeful enough, any grunting may eventually start sounding like intelligible words.
As "next of kin" (I think that's the term), her husband has the legal RIGHT to determine what happens to her. It's been 15 years of paying to keep her alive, and she HAS NOT IMPROVED. What makes you think she will if she hasn't done it in 15 years? That's as long as it takes for an infant to become fully self-aware and begin forming their own opinions. Heck, half of you weren't even alive when she went into her vegetative state.
Doctors have said that there has never been a recovery after 3 months of a vegetative state. 15 years is long enough.
There comes a point in time when you must move on, and it has gone WAY beyond that.

Aside from all of this, it is not our choice, nor the governments. It's her husband's (as stated by LAW).

One other point I'm surprised that no one has brought up is the seeming Unconstitutionality of this law (at least if applied to Schiavo). Her feeding tube is ALREADY OUT. Forcing them to put it back in would make an Ex Post Facto (retroactive) law. That is blatantly unconstitional.
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