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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 March 2005 at 6:13am
Again we go thru what many generations of Americans endure, the court of public opinion.

I was branded a "baby killer" in my day, I did what my country by law of the time required, and was and will allways be seen in the light of public opinion a "baby killer" by many of my generation, and now as history is revised, by future generations.

I show none of the hatred toward those who accuse me, and in many cases convicted me and those like me in thier court of public opinion, yet many of my generation will immediately to this day recoil from me when they find out I was in Vietnam, they after all these years still many show that hatred bred all those years ago.

Our War Protesters do serve a function in our society, yet many if not all have ever seen a war thru a soldiers eyes, they feel they can judge todays soldiers, sailors, airman and marine along with us veterans by what our media tells them, not by what we as veterans of war quietly put into our closet of memories we care not to open again.

I am disappointed in the Smitty's attacks on the soldiers and again the "baby killer" brand again placed by agenda on those who like myself are only doing what they as volunteers under the laws of our country are sent to do.

Did we brand our Grandfathers, murderers, or baby killers as they bombed German and Japanese cities and killed upwards of 50,000 civilians in one raid (research the civilian deaths of Hamburg,Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki)no then they were seen as heros, fighting the evil Nazi, or Japanese.

Only recently has this trend of treating the individual soldier as a criminal based on a political agenda been seen as correct.

For all who feel safe and who use thier protected rights here in America to protest, a right many Americans have in the past died to protect, just take a moment during thier protest to realize that somewhere else in the world someone else wants to protest thier governments actions, and thier governments soldiers are sent to ensure they do not exercise that right, while we American soldiers still stand guard to ensure and protect your right to do so.

So until the day comes where American War Protesters point their anger at all who see war as an answer, from North Korea, to Radical Islam, to Communist China, as well as many other wars and nations who use war across our world, we veterans will continue to question your morality, is it a true anti war protest, or just an anti American protest based on a political agenda.

Opinion brought to you by a convicted by the court of public opinion "baby killer" of a war long ago and far, far away, and in the eyes of many of his generation sentenced to life.

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Thor View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 6:24am
Although i haven't gotten anything like baby killer called to me....i have walked into the grocery store in my uniform and had people ask me how many innocent taliban i've killed....and i a canadian soldier.

I don't have your experience OS, nor am i one of the war hopeful kids.....i just wish more respect would get dished out for the fighting man.


as they say"Innocent people sleep soundly in their beds only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Good post OS
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goodsmitty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 6:34am

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


I am disappointed in the Smitty's attacks on the soldiers and again the "baby killer" brand again placed by agenda on those who like myself are only doing what they as volunteers under the laws of our country are sent to do.


Explain this comment before I earn my first strike for flaming you very, very thoroughly.

You're in a dream world. I AM PROTESTING Saturday, but it isn't the soldiers, it is the war in Iraq itself. I am also one of the guest speakers. I am supporting my brothers by making sure the government doesn't get too comfy with the daily body count as long as the Halliburtons and Carlisles get rich. You evidently value following your political party's agenda more than the troops.

I wrote this letter, it should explain my position pretty thoroughly:

Editor, the Gazette:

March 19 marks the second anniversary of the war in Iraq. The country is as divided about the war as it is about many political issues. Some people have agreed with the war from the start. Others of us have protested.

The war is not a political debate. Let us be united in one wish, to get it over with and bring our soldiers home. Top level government officials from the CIA to the Army have said we are no closer to ending this quagmire than when it started two years ago. We need to send a message to the president we will not tolerate another Vietnam.

On March 19, Circleville Friends (Quaker) Worship Group and People for Peace will read the names and hometowns of the 1,500 Americans killed in Iraq from 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. at the Pickaway County Courthouse in Circleville. I am a former Army captain who served in a combat zone, and there will be numerous veterans at this peaceful protest, right along with true pacifists. If you are afraid of some stigma of protesting, you could not ask to be in finer company whatever your political leanings. I ask you to support the troops and honor the fallen in this peaceful demonstration.

goodsmitty



Edited by goodsmitty
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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 8:14am

OS, you truly are the master of revisionist history and selective memory.

Well done.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tippmannboy2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 8:40am
I think that the war in Iraq was a worth while war, although now that they have their own goverment i think that we should pull out most of our troops and keep a small reserve to watch over the country and build up THEIR military. I also believe that you werent a "baby killer" OS you are and were a very brave man that answered the call of duty and stood up for our country and our countries rights and beliefs. In my eyes OS you are and will never be called a "baby killer" or a man that went in to the military to kill kill kill. Just last week my science teacher said that I am going in to the marines when i get out of highschool so i kill people for the fun the kill. That really really made me mad and got me in deep trouble. But no, you arent a "baby killer" you answered the call of duty and protected your right to speak freely, PROTEST, and do what ever you damn well please if you want to.

I honor you and your curage and all the brave men and women in the service and i pray to god that we will have none of them killed in action. You have the right to protest the war, please protest the war\, but never never call our brave soldiers "baby killers" for protecting your rights and our freedoms that we have in the United States of America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MT. Vigilante Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 10:00am

Old soldier, I would just like to be the first to thank you for serving your country. My generation needs to be more thankful for what  men like you ( and in many cases women) do so that we can enjoy freedom. My father is over in Iraq fighting right now and every time I see protesters saying bad things about our troops it makes me sick, they are all ungrateful and undeserving of the blood that has been shed in order to protect their freedom.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hysteria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 10:09am
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

Old soldier, I would just like to be the first to thank you for serving your country. My generation needs to be more thankful for what  men like you ( and in many cases women) do so that we can enjoy freedom.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote techietaichi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 10:28am
I am a veteran as well and have had names flung at me too. Not a Vietnam era soldier as Oldsoldier is, but just the same we did what our duties called for. Answered the call to arms to defend the interests of our country and leaders. I didn't always agree with the reasoning behind what we were tasked to do, but I did my job, I did what I took an oath to do. Soldiers do not live to go to war, we live to preserve peace. Like it or no, it is what it is. It is easy to berate another, but how easy is it to dawn the uniform and charge the hill? How easy is it to look down the barrel of a gun that will spit lead and split your wig in two? How easy is it to see a buddy fall in battle? Ignorance begets ignorance as these "Hippies" have demonstrated. What would you do if the "enemy" landed in your backyard? Make em' pancakes? I think not. You would call us, if we weren't already on the wall securing the perimeter. Have a care and have respect for if it were not for soldiers, the soil you stand on may not have been as free as you know it. Soldiers shed their blood and risked their lives to make these lands free, period. As always I salute you Oldsoldier and those that have, will and are serving this country of ours. The only thing I'll ever call you is "Brother".

Edited by techietaichi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rancidpnk13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 11:03am
Originally posted by MT. Vigilante MT. Vigilante wrote:

<P =Msonormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=4>Old soldier, I would just like to be the first to thank you for serving your country. My generation needs to be more thankful for what <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes">†</SPAN>men like you ( and in many cases women) do so that we can enjoy freedom. My father is over in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Iraq</st1:place></st1:country-region&g t; fighting right now and every time I see protesters saying bad things about our troops it makes me sick, they are all ungrateful and undeserving of the blood that has been shed in order to protect their freedom.



i have nothing but respect for veterans and for soldiers, however, just because you are a U.S. Soldier does NOT make you free from punishement because of YOUR individual actions, ex Torture of Prisoners. Just like in Nazi Germany, following your officers commands does not make you any less responsible IF you did something wrong.
And just because you protest the war doesn't mean you dont support our soldiers or hate them. I also don't approve of any other nations going to war for unjust reasons, I would protest if I was in Britian, or China, etc. etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluemunky42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 11:38am
i remember in first blood in the end rambo was yelling about how when he got back from 'nam the protesters at the airport were calling him baby killer and "all other sorts of vile crap" good movie. i appreciate all the soldiers over there. i saw a video of a dead soldier being filmed by an iraqi insurgent at a news station and i felt like kicking him in his ass
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LastShot0330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 12:26pm

OS, I agree with u 100%

People claim that D.C. is full of nothing but hipocrites but infact We are all hipocrites because certain wars are celebrated and revered as heroic while others are looked upon as unjust and immoral.

I am not Anti-War nor Pro-War...I am Pro America.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 1:06pm
Once again, I see the grouping of all protesters as the same hippie calling everyone "babykillers." While on the other hand I see the same grouping of everyone of our soldiers as an "American Hero." In fact their are some really stupid protesters out there, just like there are some real "babykillers" out there too. Making this a black and white issue that respect must be paid to our troops is ludicrous. I personally don't believe that dropping that A-bomb was the right thing to do. Also, I don't believe that calling many of our Vietnam vets "babykillers" proved anything either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 2:57pm
What kind of idiot hates the soldier for a war they disagree with? Soldiers follow orders. I blame the politicians. I disagreed with the war in iraq, but once we were in it, of course i was all for the soldiers. The sooner done, the sooner they can come home and avoid being blown up by some religious fool.

Whats the point of protesting anyway? Nobody listens, or you get locked up for some nonsense charge (Republican National Convention)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:23pm
Why Military Force Is Sometimes Needed.
Here's what you can do when you happen upon one of those stupid, naive, idiots that just can't seem to understand why force is sometimes needed:

1) Find the person involved in "no retaliation" type discussion.

2) Engage him in brief conversation, then ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid-sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time
A second class drive is always better than a first class walk.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:27pm

You know, that story is obviously intended to show how stupid pacifism is, but it actually does a pretty good job of doing the opposite. 

The problem is that the people who need to understand the place of pacifism will never be able to extract that lesson from this story because they are too locked in their mindset, which is too bad.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:27pm
Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Why Military Force Is Sometimes Needed.
Here's what you can do when you happen upon one of those stupid, naive, idiots that just can't seem to understand why force is sometimes needed:

1) Find the person involved in "no retaliation" type discussion.

2) Engage him in brief conversation, then ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid-sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time


I don't totally agree with you, but that was absolutely hilarious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:29pm

Originally posted by Thor Thor wrote:

Why Military Force Is Sometimes Needed.
Here's what you can do when you happen upon one of those stupid, naive, idiots that just can't seem to understand why force is sometimes needed:

1) Find the person involved in "no retaliation" type discussion.

2) Engage him in brief conversation, then ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and we should not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid-sentence, punch him in the face as hard as you can.

6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you, because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time

Excellent idea my friend. Let their "non-agressiveness" protect them from getting knocked on their asses!

And OS, as I've said before, I have nothing but respect for you and any soldier (past, present, and future) that serves our country. I've got best friends in the Marines and the Air Force who are overseas in Afghanistan and Germany, respectively, and I pray for their safe return every day. But if they do not return, they will have died with honor.

So to OS, and any other vets/soldiers: Thank You.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:34pm
Well said Thor.

I agree with Enos for the most part. Support the troops, protest your government.

While I support the war, I also support the Bill of Rights. So go have you fun protesting, see if anyone listens. Take a guess at how many you can piss off.

Just as people are gonna come support you as a speaker, you have to understand that there will be people supporting the troops, and the government.

Originally posted by Goodsmitty Goodsmitty wrote:

] You evidently value following your political party's agenda more than the troops.


Very nice hypocratic statement right there. What do you call your protest group other than a party trying to get their say in politics. AKA, a political party. It doesn't have to have a title to be a political party.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 3:54pm
I agree with Clark and Enos, however I do not see a reason to thank every troop that I come across. There are plenty of other people out there perpetuating freedom and safety, as well as education among the citizens of America. So thank your teachers and police officers...unless you're the type that just complains about them for doing their jobs. So why can't I complain about the job of a solider?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 March 2005 at 4:16pm

/Yawn/

I just woke up getting ready for another night shift to find an nice, heated debate ensuing. Better get my shots in before work.

1. The typical closed mind of Cletus and Lulubelle Sixpack cannot see the difference in protesting the government's policies, but still supporting the soldiers. sad, but typical.

2. Right wingers (OS for example) use this fact to effectively label any protester as "un-American, hippie, pinko", etc.

3. The movement of disgruntled soldiers returning from the war is growing, are they "hippies?"

At some point in time when we have lost enough lives and spent enough $billions on this war that will accomplish nothing more than it has to date, the American people will start to call for its end. Maybe it's 10,000 lives, or $500 billion dollars, but I've always been on the left side of the bell curve, so I'll be protesting this Saturday.

How ironic it is that I (a veteran army officer who served in Bosnia) will be insulted on Saturday by non-veteran couch commandos who believe that the yellow ribbon on their trunk is an adequate display of their patriotism and valor.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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