Affirmative Action

I agree that you should have gotten in over him, because in this case you were more qualified. Also, I am for the guy who is better, I don't think race should be judged. Finally, you tried to get in MIT with a 3.7?

I love the pic Hades. I absolutely agree. People do not understand affirmative action, they only hear that it is against white people.

MattyJ wrote: Nobody here has given me a reason why we should keep affirmative action, you just all say "its needed."

Not true.

I am still waiting for a clarification of your position.  Is it your position that (A) we shouldn't help the disadvantaged, or (B) blacks aren't disadvantaged?

Two different positions, both of which you have alluded to.

MattyJ wrote: Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA, Rrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt....
/me wipes tears from laughing so hard.

MattyJ wrote: However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?

One would think at it is the better move to send the dumb kid to college so he/she/it could get smarter.

Sure, just open up the borders, there are plenty of people that would love a blue collar job.

MattyJ wrote: ... the situation of racial equality is much improved now from its state when AA was started.

Certainly true.

Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race.

The answer here is "depends" - disadvantaged how?  True - blacks are no longer likely to get beaten for looking at a white woman, and even get to drink from white water fountains.

But - even after adjusting for SES, blacks are more likely to attend inferior schools, are less likely to attend college, will earn less money, more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, less likely to be promoted into managerial or executive positions, and so forth and so on.

Check the Fortune 500 - how many of those CEOs are black?  On demographics alone, you would expect about 50.

And, statistics aside, I see the disadvantaging of blacks every day.  It is more subtle than before, and perhaps even less intentional, but it is very much there.  Are there some instances where blacks are favored?  Certainly.  But on the whole...   not even close.

Sure, there are some low-income black families but there are just as many (or more) low-income white families

True only numerically.  Proportionally, blacks are MUCH more likely to be poor than whites.

... and the white families don't fall under AA.

Again, depends on what you mean by AA.  For college admissions, most schools WILL consider positively modest beginnings, and this will favor the poor whites.  There is this myth of AA as "must admit all blacks" - that just isn't the case.  College admission people consider a wide variety of factors, many of which have nothing to do with grades, and many of which are completely beyond the control of the applicant.  Race is only one of those, and only a small one at that.

As for helping the disadvantaged, I'm all for helping a smart kid who has had a rough life pay for college. I think its needed. Many a smart mind has been lost on the streets of the country because they had no money.

How about helping the smart/poor kid who is having a hard time getting into college because his school is really crappy (so his GPA is bad) and he can't afford SAT prep classes (so his SAT scores are bad).  Paying for college is one thing - getting in is another, and college admissions are clearly biased against the poor and, statistically, against minorities.

However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?

I don't think dumb people should be in college either.  That helps nobody.  But that is not the purpose of AA.  You are falling for the mythical AA of "must get all dumb blacks in college".  That's not what it is.

 

I'm at work now, so I really can't respond to all of your BS, I mean comments...  So I'll just do a quick statement.

There aren't a lot of black CEO's because they haven't worked there way up yet. The CEO's now have been in industry for many years, back at a time when racism did dictate job advancement. In 5-10 years, you will see a change in this, guaranteed. As for your view of how AA works, your'e wrong. Its not that they look at an app, see a person is black, and let them in. Its that minorities have to meet less vigerous standards to gain admission.

As for the smart/poor kid in a crappy high school, his GPA should be skyrocketing. If your school is crappy, the curriculum is easier, meaning smart kids get better grades.

College admissions are not biased against minorities.. because of AA. Thats the whole bloody point of it...

And no, it wasn't a joke. I still want people around to wash my car, cut my grass, shine my shoes, and serve me my big mac!!

Exactly!!

PlentifulBalls wrote: Its not fair to anyone really. IIt insults african-americansbecause its like they can't get into college without the extra help of affirmative action.

That is a decent argument, but primarily because of the perception problems it creates.  This is clearly a legitimate concern, as evidenced by this thread.

But again, we shouldn't overstate what AA does - it is just a tweak, not an all or nothing.  The Michigan case is a good example - I believe they awarded 5 points to under-represented ethnic groups, and 5 points for foreign nationals, but 10 points to legacy candidates, and 10 points to veterans.  SAT scores and GPAs still dwarfed those numbers.  The ethnic factor was very small.

I believe that there is an incorrect perception as to how much AA actually matters in the college application process.

MattyJ wrote: ...I really can't respond to all of your BS, I mean comments...

Now was that really necessary?  I do believe that I have been quite courteous in this discussion.

There aren't a lot of black CEO's because they haven't worked there way up yet. The CEO's now have been in industry for many years, back at a time when racism did dictate job advancement. In 5-10 years, you will see a change in this, guaranteed.

Yes and no.  You certainly are correct that there is a cohort effect.  But AA has been in effect for a long time.  The current number of black CEOs in the Fortune 500 is, I believe, 8.  Statistically, that should be 50.  Is it your contention that ALL of that very significant skew is the result of discrimination from days of yore? 

You further say that in 5-10 years we will see those numbers even out.  If so, why is it that upper middle management in American business is still largely white and male?

Blacks are behind in law school graduation - but further behind yet in law firm advancement.  Blacks, at every educational level and at every social level, make LESS than white people.  Black college grads make less than white college grads.  Black doctors make less than white doctors.  Black high school grads make less than white high school grads.

Is there some cohort effect contributing to the skew at the highest level?  Sure.  But to write off all current skew as cohort effect is not correct.

As for your view of how AA works, your'e wrong. Its not that they look at an app, see a person is black, and let them in. Its that minorities have to meet less vigerous standards to gain admission.

Yes and no.  By that definition, veterans have to meet less rigorous standards, as do people from rural areas, people from under-represented states, people who can run a good 40, legacy candidates, and people with a zillion other features.  A great way to get admitted to the University of Wisconsin, for instance, is to be from New York.

Candidates are evaluated along many axes - you are singling out one of those and declaring that this one axis is not appropriate.  What is your basis for that determination?

As for the smart/poor kid in a crappy high school, his GPA should be skyrocketing. If your school is crappy, the curriculum is easier, meaning smart kids get better grades.

Spoken like somebody who has never been in a crappy school.  You are WAY wrong.  By that theory, rich people would be paying extra money to put their kids in bad schools.