Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Affirmative Action

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>
Author
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:56pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

I know the FAFSA forms. Federal tuition aid and tuition programs, it is a very large desiding factor, that and extra caricular activities and GPA and all that. And RACE.

Yep - race is considered, in some form of other, by many/most schools and employers, but alongside other factors.  In the infamous Michigan case, for instance, ethnic minority status got fewer points than veteran status or legacy status...

Back to Top
Sammy View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 20 July 2002
Location: Switzerland
Status: Offline
Points: 4076
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sammy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 6:00pm
I agree that you should have gotten in over him, because in this case you were more qualified. Also, I am for the guy who is better, I don't think race should be judged. Finally, you tried to get in MIT with a 3.7?
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 12983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 6:23pm


Back to Top
Dune View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
<placeholder>

Joined: 05 February 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 4347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:10am
I love the pic Hades. I absolutely agree. People do not understand affirmative action, they only hear that it is against white people.
Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:15am

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

I love the pic Hades. I absolutely agree. People do not understand affirmative action, they only hear that it is against white people.

I was waiting for Dune to chime in with his "non-liberals just follow what they hear and can't think for themselves" posting. You are blind to the fact that affirmative action is not needed in this era, and are too worried that the people you are trying to help might not want your help.

Nobody here has given me a reason why we should keep affirmative action, you just all say "its needed."

98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:17am
Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

Nobody here has given me a reason why we should keep affirmative action, you just all say "its needed."

Not true.

I am still waiting for a clarification of your position.  Is it your position that (A) we shouldn't help the disadvantaged, or (B) blacks aren't disadvantaged?

Two different positions, both of which you have alluded to.

Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:35am

It's a little bit of both really. First and foremost, the situation of racial equality is much improved now from its state when AA was started. Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race. Sure, there are some low-income black families but there are just as many (or more) low-income white families, and the white families don't fall under AA. In that respect, AA should be abolished as everyone has, socially at least, an even chance for career or academic advancement.

As for helping the disadvantaged, I'm all for helping a smart kid who has had a rough life pay for college. I think its needed. Many a smart mind has been lost on the streets of the country because they had no money. However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?

98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 12983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:42am
Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA, Rrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt....
/me wipes tears from laughing so hard.

Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?


One would think at it is the better move to send the dumb kid to college so he/she/it could get smarter.

Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:45am

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA, Rrriiiiiggggghhhhhtttttt....
/me wipes tears from laughing so hard.

They aren't... Get over it...


Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:


Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?


One would think at it is the better move to send the dumb kid to college so he/she/it could get smarter.

If we smarten up all the dumb kids of the country, there will be nobody left to do the blue collar jobs... Now that just won't work...



Edited by MattyJ
98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
Hades View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2003
Location: Virgin Islands
Status: Offline
Points: 12983
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:47am
Sure, just open up the borders, there are plenty of people that would love a blue collar job.

Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:52am
And clog up our already overcrowded cities? Well, nobody ever said logical thinking was a character trait of liberals...
98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 11:59am

Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

... the situation of racial equality is much improved now from its state when AA was started.

Certainly true.

Quote Blacks are no longer disadvantaged because of their race.

The answer here is "depends" - disadvantaged how?  True - blacks are no longer likely to get beaten for looking at a white woman, and even get to drink from white water fountains.

But - even after adjusting for SES, blacks are more likely to attend inferior schools, are less likely to attend college, will earn less money, more likely to be a victim of a violent crime, less likely to be promoted into managerial or executive positions, and so forth and so on.

Check the Fortune 500 - how many of those CEOs are black?  On demographics alone, you would expect about 50.

And, statistics aside, I see the disadvantaging of blacks every day.  It is more subtle than before, and perhaps even less intentional, but it is very much there.  Are there some instances where blacks are favored?  Certainly.  But on the whole...   not even close.

Quote Sure, there are some low-income black families but there are just as many (or more) low-income white families

True only numerically.  Proportionally, blacks are MUCH more likely to be poor than whites.

Quote ... and the white families don't fall under AA.

Again, depends on what you mean by AA.  For college admissions, most schools WILL consider positively modest beginnings, and this will favor the poor whites.  There is this myth of AA as "must admit all blacks" - that just isn't the case.  College admission people consider a wide variety of factors, many of which have nothing to do with grades, and many of which are completely beyond the control of the applicant.  Race is only one of those, and only a small one at that.

Quote As for helping the disadvantaged, I'm all for helping a smart kid who has had a rough life pay for college. I think its needed. Many a smart mind has been lost on the streets of the country because they had no money.

How about helping the smart/poor kid who is having a hard time getting into college because his school is really crappy (so his GPA is bad) and he can't afford SAT prep classes (so his SAT scores are bad).  Paying for college is one thing - getting in is another, and college admissions are clearly biased against the poor and, statistically, against minorities.

Quote However, I am totally against paying for a dumb kid to go to college just because his family has no money. He doesn't deserve to be there, I don't want to pay for him. Do you think that we should?

I don't think dumb people should be in college either.  That helps nobody.  But that is not the purpose of AA.  You are falling for the mythical AA of "must get all dumb blacks in college".  That's not what it is.

 

Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

If we smarten up all the dumb kids of the country, there will be nobody left to do the blue collar jobs... Now that just won't work...

I presume this is a joke...

Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 12:33pm

I'm at work now, so I really can't respond to all of your BS, I mean comments...  So I'll just do a quick statement.

There aren't a lot of black CEO's because they haven't worked there way up yet. The CEO's now have been in industry for many years, back at a time when racism did dictate job advancement. In 5-10 years, you will see a change in this, guaranteed. As for your view of how AA works, your'e wrong. Its not that they look at an app, see a person is black, and let them in. Its that minorities have to meet less vigerous standards to gain admission.

As for the smart/poor kid in a crappy high school, his GPA should be skyrocketing. If your school is crappy, the curriculum is easier, meaning smart kids get better grades.

College admissions are not biased against minorities.. because of AA. Thats the whole bloody point of it...

And no, it wasn't a joke. I still want people around to wash my car, cut my grass, shine my shoes, and serve me my big mac!!

98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
PlentifulBalls View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Tons of em’

Joined: 14 July 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9800
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlentifulBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 12:41pm
Its not fair to anyone really. IIt insults african-americansbecause its like they can't get into college without the extra help of affirmative action.

sporx wrote:
well...ya i prolly will be a virgin till i'm at least 30.
Back to Top
MattyJ View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Strike 2 - Spam

Joined: 03 February 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 320
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 March 2005 at 12:43pm
Exactly!!
98 Custom
HK G36C Appearance
70/4500 Dye Throttle
Ricochet AK
Polished Internals
Aluminum Power Tube
Dye Sticky 3 Grips

Next on the list:
???
Back to Top
Dune View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
<placeholder>

Joined: 05 February 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 4347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:30pm

Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

As for your view of how AA works, your'e wrong. Its not that they look at an app, see a person is black, and let them in. Its that minorities have to meet less vigerous standards to gain admission.

No, not exactly. Keeping spots open for minorities without disadvantaging whites is how it works. You have a distorted view of it.

Yes it is very needed, minorities are very disadvantaged in society, still today.

Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:36pm

Originally posted by PlentifulBalls PlentifulBalls wrote:

Its not fair to anyone really. IIt insults african-americansbecause its like they can't get into college without the extra help of affirmative action.

That is a decent argument, but primarily because of the perception problems it creates.  This is clearly a legitimate concern, as evidenced by this thread.

But again, we shouldn't overstate what AA does - it is just a tweak, not an all or nothing.  The Michigan case is a good example - I believe they awarded 5 points to under-represented ethnic groups, and 5 points for foreign nationals, but 10 points to legacy candidates, and 10 points to veterans.  SAT scores and GPAs still dwarfed those numbers.  The ethnic factor was very small.

I believe that there is an incorrect perception as to how much AA actually matters in the college application process.

Back to Top
Dune View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
<placeholder>

Joined: 05 February 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 4347
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2005 at 4:38pm
I agree, AA is commonly used for people to scream "reverse racism," when in all actuality, the chances of that happening are very rare.
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 March 2005 at 5:05pm
Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

...I really can't respond to all of your BS, I mean comments... 

Now was that really necessary?  I do believe that I have been quite courteous in this discussion.

Quote There aren't a lot of black CEO's because they haven't worked there way up yet. The CEO's now have been in industry for many years, back at a time when racism did dictate job advancement. In 5-10 years, you will see a change in this, guaranteed.

Yes and no.  You certainly are correct that there is a cohort effect.  But AA has been in effect for a long time.  The current number of black CEOs in the Fortune 500 is, I believe, 8.  Statistically, that should be 50.  Is it your contention that ALL of that very significant skew is the result of discrimination from days of yore? 

You further say that in 5-10 years we will see those numbers even out.  If so, why is it that upper middle management in American business is still largely white and male?

Blacks are behind in law school graduation - but further behind yet in law firm advancement.  Blacks, at every educational level and at every social level, make LESS than white people.  Black college grads make less than white college grads.  Black doctors make less than white doctors.  Black high school grads make less than white high school grads.

Is there some cohort effect contributing to the skew at the highest level?  Sure.  But to write off all current skew as cohort effect is not correct.

Quote As for your view of how AA works, your'e wrong. Its not that they look at an app, see a person is black, and let them in. Its that minorities have to meet less vigerous standards to gain admission.

Yes and no.  By that definition, veterans have to meet less rigorous standards, as do people from rural areas, people from under-represented states, people who can run a good 40, legacy candidates, and people with a zillion other features.  A great way to get admitted to the University of Wisconsin, for instance, is to be from New York.

Candidates are evaluated along many axes - you are singling out one of those and declaring that this one axis is not appropriate.  What is your basis for that determination?

Quote As for the smart/poor kid in a crappy high school, his GPA should be skyrocketing. If your school is crappy, the curriculum is easier, meaning smart kids get better grades.

Spoken like somebody who has never been in a crappy school.  You are WAY wrong.  By that theory, rich people would be paying extra money to put their kids in bad schools.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 9>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.