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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oreomann33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 2:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:



Originally posted by Relevant Quote Relevant Quote wrote:


The Argument: There are several factors that a college should take into account when considering applicants, such as grades, test scores, and extra-curricular achievements. However, an applicant's race is not a legitimate factor to take into consideration because it is outside of the student's control. It is impossible for a college to consider every aspect of a student's background when making admissions decisions. Why focus on race in particular, as opposed to the thousands of other aspects that differentiate students from one another?

The Response: The purpose of the college admissions process is not to reward merit but to get the best overall student body. Insofar as affirmative action increases the diversity of the student community, it makes for a better learning environment.

My point exactly. College admissions should be awarding merit. And by doing so, it creates diversity. Under affirmative action, you create diversity by creating a dichotomy: those who deserve to be at the school and those who don't. Diversity shouldn't matter in a learning environment. A physics class of white students learns the same physics as a class of black students, or a class of diverse students. The material doesn't change when you introduce diversity.

If agree that racial background should not be allowed on any application, be it a job app, a college app, or a credit card app. It doesn't matter. We are all people. Martin Luther King said "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character." He was right! Martin Luther King is hailed as someone who fought for the rights of black people but that is not entirely true. He was fighting for the rights of ALL people. A society without color.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:18pm
Who says they should award merit?

And how sticking that the nations top geeks/nerds in one school creating a diverse mix? All you have is a bunch of top geeks and nerds.

The learning that takes place in college isnt just from a text book...


MLK also had a nation blind to status, class, and intelligence in mind, not just color.

Edited by Hades

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

You guys throw around the phrase "affirmative action" like it is a simple thing.  Saying that you are for or against "affirmative action" makes about as much sense as being for or against "gun control" or "war" or "tort reform".

Affirmative action is a collection of complex policies and practices.  It might be helpful to specify what exactly you are for or against.

But as to the situation at hand - there are a couple of questions.  The first one is "why do you believe that race was the deciding factor, or even a significant factor?"

No, I am against Affirmative Action. Period. You are trying to make affirmative action look like more than it is to make our arguments seem invalid. Affirmative Action is a policy to give the less advantaged "equal" chances to advance in their academic and career paths. At the time of its conception, it was needed because the minorities were not being given equal chances. Many gifted minorities were not given the oppurtunity to advance because of their race. But it is a different time now. Now, the "minorities" are given greater chances to succeed, but not because of their merits but because of their race. Many people, myself included, no longer have an equal chance at advancement because we are not diverse enough. Thats where the problem lies.

As for my case, if you knew the guy, you would understand. Why do I think race was a deciding factor? Because of all the qualities a school of MIT's caliber looks for, he had none of them. He showed no regard for others, as he didn't even have the common courtesy to show up to his interview. And his grades and academic qualities were subpar for a school of such high prestige. He would have been fine for a state school or even some of the less intense private schools. But since he is black, his mediocracy gets promoted to make it look like "his qualities may not be very high, but he is a disadvantaged minority so he never had the chance to do any better..." When the fact is that he just isn't a good enough student.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cedric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:32pm
Boys will be boys.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whoknowswho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

You guys throw around the phrase "affirmative action" like it is a simple thing.  Saying that you are for or against "affirmative action" makes about as much sense as being for or against "gun control" or "war" or "tort reform".

Affirmative action is a collection of complex policies and practices.  It might be helpful to specify what exactly you are for or against.

But as to the situation at hand - there are a couple of questions.  The first one is "why do you believe that race was the deciding factor, or even a significant factor?"

I will specify exactly what I am against: Affirmative Action. Using color or ethnic background as a basis for judgement, no matter what the end result, is wrong. True equality can only be achieved when all people are treated equally. All AA does is perpetuate discrimination in one form or another.

Also, if he surpassed the other student in all areas, and the other student did not even bother showing up for the interview, please tell me what else it could be other than racial favoritism.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MattyJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 3:38pm

Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Who says they should award merit?

And how sticking that the nations top geeks/nerds in one school creating a diverse mix? All you have is a bunch of top geeks and nerds.

The learning that takes place in college isnt just from a text book...


MLK also had a nation blind to status, class, and intelligence in mind, not just color.

God you're ignorant... Just because someone is smart, doesn't make them a geek/nerd. And to counter your question, why should dumb black kids get into a good school while smart white kids are rejected?

Do you honestly think that if AA is stopped, there will be no more minorities in good schools? If you do, you're either dumb or a racist. There are many minorities who can move forward based on their own merits. Let us all earn what we can because of who we are, not what we look like.

And your statement about MLK just strengthens my point, so thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:04pm

Originally posted by MattyJ MattyJ wrote:

No, I am against Affirmative Action. Period.

You really should define what you are against...

Quote You are trying to make affirmative action look like more than it is to make our arguments seem invalid.

I am simply attempting to define what we are talking about.  I have not attempted to invalidate anybody's arguments.  Hard to do, since no arguments have been made yet, only vague statements of general opinion.

Quote Affirmative Action is a policy to give the less advantaged "equal" chances to advance in their academic and career paths.

Ah - a definition.  :)

Using this (rather narrow) definition of AA, I gather that you are against giving "compensating" advantages to disadvantaged folk.  Period.

Is that an accurate statement of your position?

Quote At the time of its conception, it was needed because the minorities were not being given equal chances. Many gifted minorities were not given the oppurtunity to advance because of their race. But it is a different time now.

From this I gather that you aren't really against AA at all (necessarily).  You are simply saying that it is misapplied because minorities are not disadvantaged?

That is quite different from saying that you are against helping the disadvantaged.

I am confused as to exactly what your position is.

 

Quote As for my case, if you knew the guy, you would understand. Why do I think race was a deciding factor? [various reasons] ... But since he is black, his mediocracy gets promoted to make it look like "his qualities may not be very high, but he is a disadvantaged minority so he never had the chance to do any better..." When the fact is that he just isn't a good enough student.

So to paraphrase:  "I can't understand why he got accepted and I didn't, therefore it must have been race."

It may have been race.  It very well may have been.  But from your post you honestly don't have a single reason to think so, other than that you can't think of any other reason.  That is hardly proof of anything.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by whoknowswho whoknowswho wrote:

I will specify exactly what I am against: Affirmative Action. Using color or ethnic background as a basis for judgement, no matter what the end result, is wrong. True equality can only be achieved when all people are treated equally. All AA does is perpetuate discrimination in one form or another.

A noble perspective. 

Now, what if I told you that, left to their own devices, employers and schools would tend to hire and promote fewer blacks and women in positions of responsibility?  That, all other things being equal, blacks and women are in fact being discriminated against today?  Should we still have color/gender-blind policies, knowing that the result will be anything but color/gender-blind?

Quote Also, if he surpassed the other student in all areas, and the other student did not even bother showing up for the interview, please tell me what else it could be other than racial favoritism.

Well, I didn't see the applications, so I don't know.  But I do know first hand that schools and employers consider a broader variety of elements than you might expect.

And, of course, there is diversity - and not necessarily ethnic diversity.  The resume mattyj described for himself sounded, to be honest, just like the kind of resume that MIT gets delivered by the truckload.  Sometimes being a little different goes a long way.  I know a guy who went to Yale Divinity School.  He wrote his application with a crayon, and the applications people counted that in his favor.  You just never know.  It might have been race.  But it is premature for us to conclude that it was.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slacker guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:18pm
heres what u do.....ask who ever is in charge of assining the
spot why he got it and ask for a good reason and then point out
how u r better and just keep arguing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GUNDAM_99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:29pm
I dont like it because ability has nothing to do with race.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:34pm

Here's an example of diversity-based affirmative action, along the lines of what Hades was describing:

I am organizing a lunch with coworkers.  Just a social thing.  After inviting the three people in neighboring offices I realize it will be all guys.  Stag lunches are boring, so I invite a couple of women from a different floor instead of inviting some more guys from my area.

I selected women over men, specifically based on their gender, because I believe that their presence will make our lunch more enjoyable for everybody, even though in the process I stiffed some equally- or better-qualified male lunchers.

Was I wrong to do so?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:37pm
Im all for Affirmitave Action like programs, but I think they should base them off of household income, not race or skin color. Its no longer an issue of black and white, its an issue of rich and poor. This is all just my opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:42pm
See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:46pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.

No Im  saying an Affermitive Action type policy. Even though the kid from a single parent home making 18k a year may have a lower GPA or less credentials than the rich boy whos parents can buy the kids way into college, the Colleges should have to go look for the worse off kid.

Same as todays system but put in income insted of race.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:46pm

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Im all for Affirmitave Action like programs, but I think they should base them off of household income, not race or skin color. Its no longer an issue of black and white, its an issue of rich and poor. This is all just my opinion.

Would it change your mind if I could show that, even after factoring in socio-economic status, race is a very significant factor?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:48pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.

And I think you will find that most schools do in fact consider modest beginnings as a positive when evaluating applicants.

What you are describing is, in my experience, exactly what happens.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.


No Im saying an Affermitive Action type policy. Even though the kid from a single parent home making 18k a year may have a lower GPA or less credentials than the rich boy whos parents can buy the kids way into college, the Colleges should have to go look for the worse off kid.


Same as todays system but put in income insted of race.



Why, tuition is a fact of life, it helps pay for the student services, salaries and campus up keep. If we just said screw the rich kid whos parents "buy" their way in, wich every family does. The college would just decline.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:52pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.


And I think you will find that most schools do in fact consider modest beginnings as a positive when evaluating applicants.


What you are describing is, in my experience, exactly what happens.



I know the FAFSA forms. Federal tuition aid and tuition programs, it is a very large desiding factor, that and extra caricular activities and GPA and all that. And RACE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 March 2005 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

See, this makes sense, why give a spot to an inferior student when his parents make a net income of 200,000 a year. The white student who from a single parent home. Should be considered over the other student. Thats the way it should if we are going to have an affirmitive action program.


No Im saying an Affermitive Action type policy. Even though the kid from a single parent home making 18k a year may have a lower GPA or less credentials than the rich boy whos parents can buy the kids way into college, the Colleges should have to go look for the worse off kid.


Same as todays system but put in income insted of race.



Why, tuition is a fact of life, it helps pay for the student services, salaries and campus up keep. If we just said screw the rich kid whos parents "buy" their way in, wich every family does. The college would just decline.

So now your point is that monitary asistance programs are bad?


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