Anti sniper lynch mobers please comment

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.

A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

Actually there is a paintball marker that resembles one of the Barret 50's www.scepter-combat.com  and no it is not an airsoft.

Ok, here is where I am going to play teacher.
A paintball traveling more then 12 inches in a barrel begins to vibrate at roughly the 12 and a quarter mark.
Upon reaching 14 inches, it starts to travel steadily again, before vibrating a little after 15 inches, from here on out, the ball nolonger remains stable, its movement down the barrel becomes erratic.
A longer/stronger burst of air is required for it to be able to make it out of the barrel. At 21 inches the effective speed is cut down by a large percentage. At 30 inches, if you were to fire what was coming out at 300+ fps from an 8-10 inch barrel would be moving out at the low 200 feet range. Thanks to its lower escape velocity it will be rolling on the ground at a little over 50 feet.

Curlyman666 wrote: If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers. A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

I use the military definition of the word.
Someone who calls themselves a sniper in paintball doesnt have even a tenth of the skills required of a true by the book Army sniper.
At best the ranges you shoot at, with the accuracy you do, wouldnt even pass basic training examinations and you would flunk out horribly, probably while being laughed at, that is if you are not beaten with a bar of soap wrapped in a sock simply because your sargent is giving your entire group a hard time because of your pee poor shooting skills.

Yes, a sniper must have those skills in spades.
I've seen very few people that could compare to a good sniper or even a decent PFC

Nigelf wrote: now, there is certainly alot of weight put on long range and precise shooting. But there are plenty of other categories in there as well. Here is an excerpt from another article I found called "Goodbye to Romance: What It Takes To Be A Marine Scout/Sniper" written by SGT Lance M. Bacon, MCB Camp Lejeune, N.C. Sgt. Craig T. Douglas, a section leader with 3/8's Scout/Sniper Platoon: "The platoon members must also learn a variety of field skills since they are often relied upon for intelligence gathering as well as sniping, according to Douglas. "Field skills are just as important as being able to shoot well," he said. "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman. Each must to be able to call in supporting arms and close air support. Because we use a variety of communications equipment, we have to be as good as any radio operator in the Marine Corps. "Once we gather the intelligence, we have to get it back to the unit we are supporting," Douglas said. "It could be the security of a landing zone, whether the ground composition or obstacles will prohibit a landing, enemy aircraft in an area, or a surf or beach report to assist amphibious landings. "Regardless of the situation, if we can't get that information back, then we're no good out there. All we'll do is give away the battalion's intent." While performing in that role, the Scout/Sniper must also possess a level of discipline and judgment that allows him to endure the incredibly patient and calculated movements required to probe, unseen and unheard, deep into hostile area." Seb, you mentioned that all of the skills mentioned previously were hallmarks of good woodsball players, and I agree. However I would counter that any sort of "Sniper" (I say "any sort" because we're still arguing their existance) must have them in Spades:   "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman." Nigel F

I'm not against military terms being used in paintball, but there is no comparing a sniper to a paintball player.
Thats like saying a lexus is just another toyota.

Nigelf wrote: SebastianBlack wrote: I've seen very few people that could compare to a good sniper or even a decent PFC This raises another question in my mind, I know you use the military definition for sniper. And I will agree, I have yet to see a paintballer that fits that bill. How do you feel about any sort of military position term used in paintball? You say you havent seen a player that can compare to a good PFC either. Now, if you are against using military position terminology in its entirety, then thats fine, we can shake hands and agree to disagree. But if you favor it at all, how can you state that you havent seen a skill level high enough to compare to a PFC and still justify using one military designation and not the other?

Excellently put SebastianBlack. I have learned alot from reading your posts on the board,thanks for the knowledge!

cheers,mm

You got that right,so would I.. It must be a Flatliner..Not bashing Flatlines mind you ,  just think there are many better alternatives for me personally. Hey long shots are nice, but up close and personal  is  a rush. Seeing somebody's eyes grow white w/ suprize when you pop and let'em fly..Oh yeah that's nice.

mm

Edited by martiniman

SebastianBlack wrote: People really need to plan this sniper debate a bit better. Its more interesting when you cant tear apart the arguement this quickly.

I enjoy a good debate, so.....

There are no snipers in paintball.  Additionally, there are no scouts, soldiers, rangers (yes, I've seen woodsball players refer to themselves that way), or PFCs in paintball.  Paintball is a recreational game and all of the aforementioned terms refer to vocations which are deadly serious.

That said, if someone wants to refer to themselves as a paintball sniper they can do so if they want, it's a free country.  Whether or not I or anyone else will take them seriously is a different matter.  Based on my experience, I have to agree with the anti-sniper crowd that the majority of the folks who refer to themselves as snipers are trying to be special by referring to themselves with a "cool" name.  But, that does not preclude the existance of paintball snipers.  I believe that they are just really rare.  I also think that anyone skilled enough to meet all of the criteria I will list below, probably doesn't run around bragging about being a "sniper" on the paintball field.

Both Old Soldier and Sr-Crewchief have offered up the criteria for snipers in paintball and I generally agree with their arguments.  It has become the litmus test I use to determine if someone is actually a paintball sniper or not.  I just keep in mind that paintball is a game and is played with equipment that has certain technological limitations when compared to firearms. 

Paintball Sniper Criteria:

1.  Superior marksmenship:  Everyone always agrees that as unfair as it is, some people are just much better shots than others.

2.  Experise in camoflage/concealment:  Again, this is a point that is normally not argued by those who don't believe in paintball snipers; some folks are just more effective with these skills (especially ex-military).

3.  Ability to approach a target undetected:  It is generally conceded by the anti-sniper crowd that there are folks who meet this criteria.  In my experience, seasoned hunters have an edge over most other people.  I have also noted that a lot of wannabe "snipers" who brag about their stalking skills tend to earn their impressive elimination rates against newer/younger players.

4.  Ability to engage targets from beyond the effective range of return fire:  This is one of the major points of contention between the pro and con crowds.  I have seen this effect obtained four different ways, although only the first one meets the strictest application of this rule.

-- Using the trajectory provided by a flatline barrel to fire through/under obstacles that make return fire impossible.  (Note:  I do not consider the flatline a sniper barrel for the longer ranges because of the inherent inaccuracy of paintballs.  It is, hovever, very handy for long range suppressive fire.)

-- Lobbing at extreme ranges through a small opening in overhead cover that interferes with return fire. 

-- Using an excessively long barrel that can be pushed through foliage allowing fire to be placed without exposure to return fire.

-- Utilizing a natural firing lane to take a single quick elimination, then step back away from return fire along the same lane.

5.  Engaging targets without compromising location:

-- There are very quiet barrels available (such as the Whisper and the End Game) that make it difficult to locate an individual firing until after a few shots. 

-- If the would be paintball sniper is smart and careful he/she could also utilize a louder barrel if his target was distracted or there were others firing nearby or background noise that could be used for masking shots.

6.  Ability to depart without being identified/engaged:  This is the hardest criteria to meet due to the range limitations of paintball markers.  The paintball sniper is going to be fairly close to any surviving opponents.  Their reaction could be anything from not even realizing they lost a team member (or members) to establishing a base of fire and dispatching a sweep element to clear the area.  A true paintball sniper should not just set up an ambush anywhere.  (If they are merely hiding and waiting for a group to wander by so they can either jump out and spray them, or fire a few quick shots and run away, they are not paintball snipers.)  There are several ways to avoid indentification/engagement, all of which are highly terrain dependent.

-- The use of firing lanes in thick growth allows for complete concealment, then a quick strike for a single elimination, followed by a hasty departure covered by the intervening foliage.

-- Setting up near terrain features that allow for a concealed departure such as ditches or creekbeds.

-- Utilizing the terrain to prevent/delay the possibility of engagement.  (i.e. setting up across a creek or fence from the target area to delay sweeping teams searching for the paintball sniper.)

I have never seen any single individual (myself included) utilize all of the skills necessary to meet the criteria above.  I have, however, seen all of the above used by various different people.  With this in mind, I have to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of paintball snipers with the caveat that they are just really, really rare.  I also have to admit that a skillful player could meet all of the above criteria to be a paintball sniper and still be a detriment to his/her team.  If the paintball sniper is going to go sniping they should be concentrating on activities that help their team.  (Controlling key terrain to hinder the oppositions movement, eliminating experienced members of the other team, set up as a last ditch flag defense, etc.)  The paintball sniper who hunts and eliminates 4 noobs for his personal aggrandizement while his team's flag station is over run is not going to be welcome back at the break area no matter how "cool" his stalking technique was.

Edited by Mack

Curlyman666 wrote: If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers. A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

First, Snipers don't routinely make 1000 yard shots. They train to sneak in, make a 300 yard shot and sneak out.
Second the Marines use a Remington 720, in Winchester 308 for a sniper rifle. Not a 50 cal.
It is against the Geneva convention to shot a person with a 50 cal. The Barrett is not a sniper rifle. It is a crew served weapon used to detonate explosives cashes, kill aircraft and vehicles.

Well, the only "sniper" i've ever came in contact with is one of my best friends the reason he's a "sniper" is because he weighs 275 and he's 16 (big ole boy) and basically what he does is find a tree thats big enough to support him then he begins the ardous task of climbing it about half way up and just waits there for someone to walk by...then he shoots at them. Pretty simple huh?