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Anti sniper lynch mobers please comment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Curlyman666 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:03pm

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.

A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Curlyman666 Curlyman666 wrote:

A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet



now tell me, how does that further your argument?


edit:  a 30 inch barrel will not shoot any farther or more precisely than a shorter one... I'll take a good 12" with HPA and a reg over a 30" barrel anyday.  Many would go shorter, and would shoot as accurately.


Nigelf


Edited by Nigelf
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:35pm
Actually there is a paintball marker that resembles one of the Barret 50's www.scepter-combat.com  and no it is not an airsoft.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:43pm
Wow,thats pretty impressive being as the farthest shooting barrel, the flatline, can only stay on a steady path for 100 feet before dropping. At most it can go 150 feet unless you long ball it. So you're telling me you can shoot 200 feet and hit a throat?
I believe you're dripping some BravoSierra
down the front of your ghillie
Make it to any big game. I'll give you a thousand dollars cash if you can hit a 2 inch circle at 200 feet with one shot.

Originally posted by tekman tekman wrote:

I am a sniper. I stay in the rear and back up my front men. I shoot and cannot be seen. I will plant a paintball right in your throat from 200 feet, and you wont know where it came from. But that gets boring, so I usually use my other gun and play lead, and let someone else play sniper.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:47pm
Ok, here is where I am going to play teacher.
A paintball traveling more then 12 inches in a barrel begins to vibrate at roughly the 12 and a quarter mark.
Upon reaching 14 inches, it starts to travel steadily again, before vibrating a little after 15 inches, from here on out, the ball nolonger remains stable, its movement down the barrel becomes erratic.
A longer/stronger burst of air is required for it to be able to make it out of the barrel. At 21 inches the effective speed is cut down by a large percentage. At 30 inches, if you were to fire what was coming out at 300+ fps from an 8-10 inch barrel would be moving out at the low 200 feet range. Thanks to its lower escape velocity it will be rolling on the ground at a little over 50 feet.


Originally posted by Curlyman666 Curlyman666 wrote:

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.


A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:48pm
Originally posted by tekman tekman wrote:

I am a sniper...  But that gets boring.


Ok, ALL other bs in that post aside, these two statements should not go together.  If you get bored with it, you are not a sniper by anyones definition. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 7:53pm
I use the military definition of the word.
Someone who calls themselves a sniper in paintball doesnt have even a tenth of the skills required of a true by the book Army sniper.
At best the ranges you shoot at, with the accuracy you do, wouldnt even pass basic training examinations and you would flunk out horribly, probably while being laughed at, that is if you are not beaten with a bar of soap wrapped in a sock simply because your sargent is giving your entire group a hard time because of your pee poor shooting skills.

Yes, a sniper must have those skills in spades.
I've seen very few people that could compare to a good sniper or even a decent PFC

Originally posted by Nigelf Nigelf wrote:

now, there is certainly alot of weight put on long range and precise
shooting. But there are plenty of other categories in there as
well. Here is an excerpt from another article I found called "Goodbye to
Romance: What It Takes To Be A Marine Scout/Sniper" written
by SGT Lance M. Bacon, MCB Camp Lejeune, N.C.


Sgt. Craig T. Douglas, a section leader with 3/8's
Scout/Sniper Platoon: "The platoon members must also learn a variety of field skills since they are
often relied upon for intelligence gathering as well as sniping, according to
Douglas.

"Field skills are just as important as being able to shoot well,"
he said. "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the
abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman. Each must to be able to call
in supporting arms and close air support. Because we use a variety of
communications equipment, we have to be as good as any radio operator in the
Marine Corps.




"Once we gather the intelligence, we have to get it back to the unit we
are supporting," Douglas said. "It could be the security of a landing
zone, whether the ground composition or obstacles will prohibit a landing, enemy
aircraft in an area, or a surf or beach report to assist amphibious landings.




"Regardless of the situation, if we can't get that information back, then
we're no good out there. All we'll do is give away the battalion's intent."




While performing in that role, the Scout/Sniper must also possess a level of
discipline and judgment that allows him to endure the incredibly patient and
calculated movements required to probe, unseen and unheard, deep into hostile
area."




Seb, you mentioned that all of the skills mentioned previously were
hallmarks of good woodsball players, and I agree. However I would
counter that any sort of "Sniper" (I say "any sort" because we're still
arguing their existance) must have them in Spades:   "The field
skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and
knowledge of the average infantryman." Nigel F

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 8:10pm
Originally posted by SebastianBlack SebastianBlack wrote:


I've seen very few people that could compare to a good sniper or even a decent PFC



This raises another question in my mind, I know you use the military definition for sniper.  And I will agree, I have yet to see a paintballer that fits that bill.  How do you feel about any sort of military position term used in paintball?  You say you havent seen a player that can compare to a good PFC either. 

Now, if you are against using military position terminology in its entirety, then thats fine, we can shake hands and agree to disagree.  But if you favor it at all, how can you state that you havent seen a skill level high enough to compare to a PFC and still justify using one military designation and not the other? 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 8:21pm
I'm not against military terms being used in paintball, but there is no comparing a sniper to a paintball player.
Thats like saying a lexus is just another toyota.


Originally posted by Nigelf Nigelf wrote:


Originally posted by SebastianBlack SebastianBlack wrote:

I've seen very few people that could compare to a good sniper or even a decent PFC




This raises another question in my mind, I know you use the military
definition for sniper. And I will agree, I have yet to see a
paintballer that fits that bill. How do you feel about any sort
of military position term used in paintball? You say you havent
seen a player that can compare to a good PFC either. Now, if you are against using military position terminology in its
entirety, then thats fine, we can shake hands and agree to
disagree. But if you favor it at all, how can you state that you
havent seen a skill level high enough to compare to a PFC and still
justify using one military designation and not the other?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 8:25pm
Closed bolt markers are theoretically more accurate then open bolt markers. We're not talking about guns, we're talking about paintball.


Originally posted by Curlyman666 Curlyman666 wrote:

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.


A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martiniman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 10:52pm

Excellently put SebastianBlack. I have learned alot from reading your posts on the board,thanks for the knowledge!

cheers,mm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 11:05pm
Thanks martiniman. I dont mean to sound bullheaded, but I have very strong feelings toward the sniper debate. I'm actually glad this one hasnt degraded to a flame war, though I wish there was more of an offensive from the other side. Though I did like the guy that said he could shoot me in the throat at 200 feet. I honestly would pay to see someone do that with a paintball gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martiniman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 11:28pm

You got that right,so would I.. It must be a Flatliner..Not bashing Flatlines mind you ,  just think there are many better alternatives for me personally. Hey long shots are nice, but up close and personal  is  a rush. Seeing somebody's eyes grow white w/ suprize when you pop and let'em fly..Oh yeah that's nice.

mm



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 1:01am
I feel the same as you do martiniman.... and thank God I never claimed to be any kind of sniper when playing paintball in the woods and I do agree wit Sebastion and Nigelf on their comments as well but, its a never ending debate that has no ending.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 6:40am

Originally posted by SebastianBlack SebastianBlack wrote:

People really need to plan this sniper debate a bit better. Its more interesting when you cant tear apart the arguement this quickly.

I enjoy a good debate, so.....

There are no snipers in paintball.  Additionally, there are no scouts, soldiers, rangers (yes, I've seen woodsball players refer to themselves that way), or PFCs in paintball.  Paintball is a recreational game and all of the aforementioned terms refer to vocations which are deadly serious.

That said, if someone wants to refer to themselves as a paintball sniper they can do so if they want, it's a free country.  Whether or not I or anyone else will take them seriously is a different matter.  Based on my experience, I have to agree with the anti-sniper crowd that the majority of the folks who refer to themselves as snipers are trying to be special by referring to themselves with a "cool" name.  But, that does not preclude the existance of paintball snipers.  I believe that they are just really rare.  I also think that anyone skilled enough to meet all of the criteria I will list below, probably doesn't run around bragging about being a "sniper" on the paintball field.

Both Old Soldier and Sr-Crewchief have offered up the criteria for snipers in paintball and I generally agree with their arguments.  It has become the litmus test I use to determine if someone is actually a paintball sniper or not.  I just keep in mind that paintball is a game and is played with equipment that has certain technological limitations when compared to firearms. 

Paintball Sniper Criteria:

1.  Superior marksmenship:  Everyone always agrees that as unfair as it is, some people are just much better shots than others.

2.  Experise in camoflage/concealment:  Again, this is a point that is normally not argued by those who don't believe in paintball snipers; some folks are just more effective with these skills (especially ex-military).

3.  Ability to approach a target undetected:  It is generally conceded by the anti-sniper crowd that there are folks who meet this criteria.  In my experience, seasoned hunters have an edge over most other people.  I have also noted that a lot of wannabe "snipers" who brag about their stalking skills tend to earn their impressive elimination rates against newer/younger players.

4.  Ability to engage targets from beyond the effective range of return fire:  This is one of the major points of contention between the pro and con crowds.  I have seen this effect obtained four different ways, although only the first one meets the strictest application of this rule.

-- Using the trajectory provided by a flatline barrel to fire through/under obstacles that make return fire impossible.  (Note:  I do not consider the flatline a sniper barrel for the longer ranges because of the inherent inaccuracy of paintballs.  It is, hovever, very handy for long range suppressive fire.)

-- Lobbing at extreme ranges through a small opening in overhead cover that interferes with return fire. 

-- Using an excessively long barrel that can be pushed through foliage allowing fire to be placed without exposure to return fire.

-- Utilizing a natural firing lane to take a single quick elimination, then step back away from return fire along the same lane.

5.  Engaging targets without compromising location:

-- There are very quiet barrels available (such as the Whisper and the End Game) that make it difficult to locate an individual firing until after a few shots. 

-- If the would be paintball sniper is smart and careful he/she could also utilize a louder barrel if his target was distracted or there were others firing nearby or background noise that could be used for masking shots.

6.  Ability to depart without being identified/engaged:  This is the hardest criteria to meet due to the range limitations of paintball markers.  The paintball sniper is going to be fairly close to any surviving opponents.  Their reaction could be anything from not even realizing they lost a team member (or members) to establishing a base of fire and dispatching a sweep element to clear the area.  A true paintball sniper should not just set up an ambush anywhere.  (If they are merely hiding and waiting for a group to wander by so they can either jump out and spray them, or fire a few quick shots and run away, they are not paintball snipers.)  There are several ways to avoid indentification/engagement, all of which are highly terrain dependent.

-- The use of firing lanes in thick growth allows for complete concealment, then a quick strike for a single elimination, followed by a hasty departure covered by the intervening foliage.

-- Setting up near terrain features that allow for a concealed departure such as ditches or creekbeds.

-- Utilizing the terrain to prevent/delay the possibility of engagement.  (i.e. setting up across a creek or fence from the target area to delay sweeping teams searching for the paintball sniper.)

I have never seen any single individual (myself included) utilize all of the skills necessary to meet the criteria above.  I have, however, seen all of the above used by various different people.  With this in mind, I have to acknowledge the possibility of the existence of paintball snipers with the caveat that they are just really, really rare.  I also have to admit that a skillful player could meet all of the above criteria to be a paintball sniper and still be a detriment to his/her team.  If the paintball sniper is going to go sniping they should be concentrating on activities that help their team.  (Controlling key terrain to hinder the oppositions movement, eliminating experienced members of the other team, set up as a last ditch flag defense, etc.)  The paintball sniper who hunts and eliminates 4 noobs for his personal aggrandizement while his team's flag station is over run is not going to be welcome back at the break area no matter how "cool" his stalking technique was.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 7:30am
^^^I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are people that compare to the real thing quite well, however, those people are never ones to call themselves snipers. I think if old soldier saw his name up there he'd have a round or two of things to say
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 10:39am
Originally posted by Curlyman666 Curlyman666 wrote:

If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.


A sniper rifle doesnt have to be bolt action, ever heard of the Barrett M82A1 "Light Fifty",semi auto sniper rifle,make a marker like that,same length barrel(like 30-ish inches i believe),and you could shoot dead-on at 150 feet



First, Snipers don't routinely make 1000 yard shots. They train to sneak in, make a 300 yard shot and sneak out.
Second the Marines use a Remington 720, in Winchester 308 for a sniper rifle. Not a 50 cal.
It is against the Geneva convention to shot a person with a 50 cal. The Barrett is not a sniper rifle. It is a crew served weapon used to detonate explosives cashes, kill aircraft and vehicles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 12:47pm

Originally posted by SebastianBlack SebastianBlack wrote:

^^^I've said it before and I'll say it again. There are people that compare to the real thing quite well, however, those people are never ones to call themselves snipers. I think if old soldier saw his name up there he'd have a round or two of things to say

Actually, I think you phrased the point I was trying to make better than I did.  It means nothing if someone considers themselves to be a paintball sniper, what matters is what the people who play with/against them think of their playing style.  As for Old Soldier having a "round or two of things to say", I'm not sure why he would since I agree with pretty much everthing he says on this topic.  The only real difference is in strictness of application.  (Doesn't exist compared to could exist but extremely rare.)

I just prefer to keep an open mind and apply the definition in the context of the equipment limitations the same way the historical definition of the military sniper has changed as technology advances.  Consider this, modern snipers make shots at amazing ranges such as approximately 1.5 miles in the link below.

  http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/KillingShot_2430Metres .asp

This is over 4 times the effective range of the M4.  But during the revolutionary war the British were appalled that the colonial snipers could pick off selected officers in excess of 200 yards with a single aimed shot from their Kentucky long rifles.  (The British were not only appalled by the range, they also considered it unsporting that the colonials would "murder innocent officers who were only trying to manuever their troops" according to the History Channel.)  In comparison the average musket of the day was considered to have an effective range of approximately 100 yards.  When used in volley the effective range was considered to be extended out to 200-250 yards, but that was with 100 rounds fired simultaneously.  (Accuracy through volume; very similar to some paintball players I know.)

Edited Note:  Someone mentioned that the .50 cal. couldn't be used as a sniper weapon because of the Geneva convention.  As noted in the linked article above, it is currently in use in that manner in Afghanistan.  Furthermore, use of it as a sniper round is also referred to in "Marine Sniper" the autobiography of Carlos Hathcock.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LastShot0330 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 1:26pm
Well, the only "sniper" i've ever came in contact with is one of my best friends the reason he's a "sniper" is because he weighs 275 and he's 16 (big ole boy) and basically what he does is find a tree thats big enough to support him then he begins the ardous task of climbing it about half way up and just waits there for someone to walk by...then he shoots at them. Pretty simple huh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unicorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 February 2005 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by A-5 Command A-5 Command wrote:

Hello comrads.

Every time i see a paintball sniper argument there are always people saying their are no such thing as snipers in paintball. Why. This is the question that is never answered. What characteristics of paintball make it impossible to become "a sniper"?

And if their is no such thing as sniping, then why are accesories such as longer range barrels, scopes, and ghillie suits used in paintball?

 

Because I know and knew real snipers.  I know some when I was active duty infantry, I know a couple now that I'm a National Guard combat engineer, and I knew a former Marine that was a sniper instructor at Quantico.  Even with the flatline, no marker gives capabilities that anyone else doesn't have.  People get sniping mixed up with camping, or with basic stealth that every recruit private gets drilled in.  Most of these so called snipers (an insult to the men, and now women if you include law enforcement, who have sweated and worked hard, and suffered to EARN that title) are just wannabes with the cool looking stuff, or at least cool in their minds, and would be outclassed by a stinking cook when it came to real tactics.  Those long barrels do absolutely nothing to increase range or accuracy.  Only the Flatlines increase the range at all. 

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