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Anti sniper lynch mobers please comment

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-5 Command Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 2:54pm
Originally posted by DrexelSkaPB DrexelSkaPB wrote:

Try to move away from woodsball and into scenario and big game types.

I don't know about you guys, but around here at fields like Picasso Lake, On Target, etc. woodsball games are basically a 100 yard by 75 yard field or so, with two teams of about 10-20 people. At the whistle, everybody runs to grab more land and the good bunkers. After 15 minutes of throwing paint and moving around, a team wins after they get the flag or eliminate the other team. It's hard to be a sniper in this envirnoment, you can usually see where the other team starts, and the side boundaries.

But scenarios and big games are a whole different story. You're playing with hundreds of people on several hundred acres, with objectives, missions, etc, and it will last for hours. This is where the sniper plays best. Before a team makes a push towards the enemy base or to capture objectives or rescue teammates behind the lines, it is smart to send out scouts and diversionary attacks. They also work well to disrupt and piss off the opposing team during general movement. Since the playing field is so huge, one single guy can sneak around the bulk of an opponent, and with a radio, can call teammates up and tell them what's going on where they can't see. And the whole one shot one kill doesn't come into play. Move around and lay a lot of paint to distract them and make it seem like more than one guy. This will draw many opponents (maybe up to 20) from the front lines, and their just chasing one guy.

Don't take the word sniper so literally, it's military and real-world meaning need not apply, just like saying pointman and interdictory rifleman. A sniper is a scenario or big game position which is effective at roles including, but not limited to: harassing, scouting, diversion, and ambush set-up.

this is exactly what i mean, thank you. And yes i realize that in certain enviornments it is impossible to be a sniper.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 2:57pm
But what he described isnt a sniper, that would be a Scouting position more then anything, and it doesnt sound remotely like anything to do with being a sniper.
It seems that alot of these things you describe as sniper qualities are the exact same thing everyone who isnt playing for the first time.
You've yet to prove there is anything remotely like a sniper in paintball, just describing tactics with your own flare doesnt make one thing into another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-5 Command Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 3:03pm

what would you sabastian, call someone who is in an elevated position over looking the main firefight in a woods ball game and is picking off enemy players that are below him? dont take this as a nasty thing twords you i am just asking for your opinion cause u seem to no what your talking about.

and why in gods name do u have a swasticka as your icon?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 3:26pm
a woodsball player. Plain and simple, As I said, snipers work in pairs, have to deal with windage, have assigned objectives, and have guns especially tuned for shooting over long distances, One shot One Kill, do the devils will, all that buisness.
Paintball players can not consistently shoot someone out in one shot, Its not possible.
If you show me a bolt action marker that will take someone out at a thousand meters consistently, and are dead nuts accurate every time, then I'll admit there can be snipers.
However, a real sniper goes days to weeks crawling on their belly in hostile territory with minimal if any contact with any sort of support.
If a sniper gets found he's abandoned and he pretty much knows this.
I find people calling themselves a sniper a diservice to the men who do the job. I think its highly insulting to compare yourself to someone who's very meaning is putting his life on the line to remove designated threats to my and your way of being degrading.

I play paintball, I do it in the woods alot. I sneak around, I carefully choose my shots and I do my best to flank my enemy and get a good position that they cant find me while doing so.
I'm not a sniper, I'm an experienced player.
Other experienced players look down on people whom call themselves a sniper for one reason. It reminds them of the 12 year old who is too scared to get hit and does nothing but weigh the team down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-5 Command Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 3:44pm

What if it is a very large scenario game or some crap and the player is sent on a special mission with one other player? Would you call them assasins or spys? Or im guesing u would call them a pointman?

oh and also would you say recon scouts exist in paintball?

and also dude sniper rifles dont have to be bolt action, first semi auto sniper rifle was invented in ww2.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrexelSkaPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 5:19pm

Sebastian, you, along with everyone else who argues the paintball sniper, are way to literal when interprating the word sniper. You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic.

Just remember, you have to throw away the dictionary meaning or military meaning of sniper and remember it's a broad term used loosely to describe players who scout, harass, disrupt, etc. in their opponents territory, during SCENARIO GAMES, not backyard woodsball. If you've ever played a scenario or big game, than you've seen this tactic, and it's is very effective.

I was at EMR in October for Castle Conquest, and what the defenders did occasionally was send a guy out of the castle and just look around, hide, start ripping some paint at us, and then run. We would either run after him and get stuck in an ambush or chase him down and find ourselves farther from the objective - either way, the sniper won. You can't just ignore him either, because he was taking guys out a lot faster than we could take him out.

And that comment about 12 year olds - grow up. I've played with kids young enough to practically be my son and they've got balls; running up to the front, being that wedge in the middle of the field, they can use a sappling for a bunker. They were keeping up with the experienced and seasoned players like me and my buddies, because we teach them how to play. By shunning and whining about the younger generation YOUR doing a diservice to the growth of our sport.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 6:52pm
But the broad term you are using encompasses most scenario/woodsball players.
I am not overanalyzing the term, you are not looking at a broad enough picture.


Originally posted by DrexelSkaPB DrexelSkaPB wrote:

Sebastian, you, along with everyone else who argues the paintball sniper, are way to literal when interprating the word sniper. You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic.


Just remember, you have to throw away the dictionary meaning or military meaning of sniper and remember it's a broad term used loosely to describe players who scout, harass, disrupt, etc. in their opponents territory, during SCENARIO GAMES, not backyard woodsball. If you've ever played a scenario or big game, than you've seen this tactic, and it's is very effective.


I was at EMR in October for Castle Conquest, and what the defenders did occasionally was send a guy out of the castle and just look around, hide, start ripping some paint at us, and then run. We would either run after him and get stuck in an ambush or chase him down and find ourselves farther from the objective - either way, the sniper won. You can't just ignore him either, because he was taking guys out a lot faster than we could take him out.


And that comment about 12 year olds - grow up. I've played with kids young enough to practically be my son and they've got balls; running up to the front, being that wedge in the middle of the field, they can use a sappling for a bunker. They were keeping up with the experienced and seasoned players like me and my buddies, because we teach them how to play. By shunning and whining about the younger generation YOUR doing a diservice to the growth of our sport.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Betterdays Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by DrexelSkaPB DrexelSkaPB wrote:

You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general term which describes a certain tactic.


Says who exactly? You can't just make up definitions to suit your needs.
That's the crux of the whole arguement. I don't think anyone is questioning the tactics...just that, as you yourself concede, its tough to justify any traditional use of the term sniper in paintball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 7:55pm
Exactly, he openly admits he's changing the definition to fit his idea. But his idea covers a great deal of woodsball players.
Basicly those he chooses to call a sniper, reguardless of their actual role, are snipers'


Originally posted by Betterdays Betterdays wrote:


Originally posted by DrexelSkaPB DrexelSkaPB wrote:


You have to move away from the meaning that you are accustomed to
hearing in military and police terms. A paintball sniper is a general
term which describes a certain tactic.



Says who exactly? You can't just make up definitions to suit your needs.
That's the crux of the whole arguement. I don't think anyone is
questioning the tactics...just that, as you yourself concede, its tough
to justify any traditional use of the term sniper in paintball.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CougarBattalion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 February 2005 at 11:19pm
Theres "sniper" stuff in the paintball market, because people are just that gullible.  People buy that crap so they can look "cool" at the paintball fields.  There is no military type sniper in paintball.  Sure, you can deck your marker out with the coolest sniper stuff, put on a guille and sit out under a bush waiting for someone to come by you so you can take shot at them.  Unfourtunately, physics make it impossible to actually do what a real sniper does.  You can't shoot a paintball 300 yards.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martiniman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 12:54am

I agree w/CougarBattalion & A5 Command, The term is very loosely used in marketing sales & newbie terminology.Hey if you want to lay or sit and wait for that one (maybe) perfect shot go ahead..Personally I would rather run and gun and be active in the game.For those afraid of getting shot,give golf a try....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 2:46pm
People really need to plan this sniper debate a bit better. Its more interesting when you cant tear apart the arguement this quickly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 4:51pm
Im suprised youre actually responding in this thread SebastionBlack, even though this thread is in the wrong section of the Forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bolt3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by evil_fingers evil_fingers wrote:

Im suprised youre actually responding in this thread SebastionBlack, even though this thread is in the wrong section of the Forum.


Get over it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 5:19pm
I think mods have better things to do then worry about what thread is posted where. If I were to report something, it would be worth while, like flaming and improper sigs, stuff like that.
Though,thank you for trying to start an arguement in a thread thats going along just fine. Kudos to you for trying to get the forum to degenerate.

Originally posted by evil_fingers evil_fingers wrote:

Im suprised youre actually responding in this thread SebastionBlack, even though this thread is in the wrong section of the Forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 5:40pm
Well I wouldnt say that a MOD has anything better to do....Ive already seen several threads that has been moved to their approptiate location and Im not starting an argument wit you if that was your implication.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 6:27pm
In the interest of civil argument...


I grabbed this from an article on British sniper school.

This was under a section outlining what was stressed and taught during the school: 

Sniper Knowledge

Understanding the tasks of a Sniper, Understanding the weapon system, understanding wind & range calculations, etc.. (Too often instructors concentrate on History instead of knowledge of the job.)

Map reading and Air photography

A Sniper must be able to navigate, pin-point features from a Map, and read, grid and scale Air photographs. This allows him to plan his task and navigate to and from his area of operations.

Concealment

Snipers are taught to conceal themselves in a short period of time with the ability to engage an enemy without detection. This is in case they encounter an enemy on route to their area of operations.

Observation

Snipers are taught how to scan, observe, and log what they see. This is so that they can detect minor details that may aid them in spotting their quarry, and develops their ability to collate information for their Bn.

Stalking

Snipers are instructed in the art of stalking, route selection, movement, and construction of a fire position. This allows a Sniper to plan his route to a fire position, move to it undetected, eliminate his quarry, and then extract unseen.

Judging Distance

Snipers are instructed in various methods and aids to judging distance. This allows them to correctly judge distance to their target prior to taking the shot.

Shooting

Snipers are taught and then practice various conventional and unconventional fire positions. This yields a strong probability of a first round kill.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tekman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 6:33pm
I am a sniper.  I stay in the rear and back up my front men.  I shoot and cannot be seen. I will plant a paintball right in your throat from 200 feet, and you wont know where it came from.  But that gets boring, so I usually use my other gun and play lead, and let someone else play sniper.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 6:34pm
now, there is certainly alot of weight put on long range and precise shooting.  But there are plenty of other categories in there as well. 


Here is an excerpt from another article I found called "Goodbye to Romance:  What It Takes To Be A Marine Scout/Sniper"  written by SGT Lance M. Bacon, MCB Camp Lejeune, N.C.


Sgt. Craig T. Douglas, a section leader with 3/8's Scout/Sniper Platoon: 

"The platoon members must also learn a variety of field skills since they are often relied upon for intelligence gathering as well as sniping, according to Douglas.

"Field skills are just as important as being able to shoot well," he said. "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman. Each must to be able to call in supporting arms and close air support. Because we use a variety of communications equipment, we have to be as good as any radio operator in the Marine Corps.

"Once we gather the intelligence, we have to get it back to the unit we are supporting," Douglas said. "It could be the security of a landing zone, whether the ground composition or obstacles will prohibit a landing, enemy aircraft in an area, or a surf or beach report to assist amphibious landings.

"Regardless of the situation, if we can't get that information back, then we're no good out there. All we'll do is give away the battalion's intent."

While performing in that role, the Scout/Sniper must also possess a level of discipline and judgment that allows him to endure the incredibly patient and calculated movements required to probe, unseen and unheard, deep into hostile area."



Seb, you mentioned that all of the skills mentioned previously were hallmarks of good woodsball players, and I agree.  However I would counter that any sort of "Sniper" (I say "any sort" because we're still arguing their existance) must have them in Spades:   "The field skills of each platoon member must be far and above the abilities and knowledge of the average infantryman." 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nigelf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 February 2005 at 6:47pm
And from that same article, even the marines have the problem of the  sniper image fed by marketing and media:

"Douglas admits that some Marines are interested in becoming a Scout/Sniper because of the glamorous impression the posters and movies create. These Marines, however, are usually filtered out within the first day or two of the week-long indoctrination."
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