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No, this is ridiculous!

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2005 at 11:15pm

Originally posted by hashi2008 hashi2008 wrote:

  Clark, please show me where the constitution says anything about the separation of church and state.  There was nothing wrong with the sticker.  The ruling violates the first ammendment, not the sticker. 

There is a common tendency among many people to confuse "the law" with "what I would like the law to be".

The First Amendment does not specifically mention separation of church and state.  However, we have a common law system, as established by the Constitution.  Pursuant to that constitution and that legal system, we have 200+ years of interpretation of the First Amendment, and there are a variety of Supreme Court rulings that state VERY clearly that the First Amendment means that there is a wall between church and state.  This principle is one of the most solid in American jurisprudence.  To deny its validity just because the word "separation" does not appear in the First Amendment is silly.

You are simply wrong.  As a matter of fact, and as a matter of law, you are wrong.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2005 at 11:19pm

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Pardon me asking, but how does that sticker push creationsim?  I read it about 30 times and I dont see it.

Read in a vacuum, it does not push anything.  This was the point made by the supporters of the sticker.

But we do not live in a vacuum.  When viewed in societal context, the sticker attempts to discredit one particular scientific theory.  By not attempting to discredit other theories, the sticker singles out this one theory.  This one theory (evolution) happens to be perpetually embroiled in religious controversy.  There is no apparent reason to single out this one theory for discredit, other than religious motivation.  And that makes it unconstitutional.

It doesn't push creationism - it discredits evolution for religious motivations.  Different approach, same motivation.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Darur Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2005 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Pardon me asking, but how does that sticker push creationsim?  I read it about 30 times and I dont see it.

Read in a vacuum, it does not push anything.  This was the point made by the supporters of the sticker.

But we do not live in a vacuum.  When viewed in societal context, the sticker attempts to discredit one particular scientific theory.  By not attempting to discredit other theories, the sticker singles out this one theory.  This one theory (evolution) happens to be perpetually embroiled in religious controversy.  There is no apparent reason to single out this one theory for discredit, other than religious motivation.  And that makes it unconstitutional.

It doesn't push creationism - it discredits evolution for religious motivations.  Different approach, same motivation.



I suppose that makes sense, but still it sounds like pulling a lot of crap out of nothing.

EDIT : Also, according to what I have been told by my biology teachers evolution is the only theory really as the others are either psudoscience or hypothesises lacking support, therefore it is the theory taught and making this sticker make sense.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SebastianBlack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 January 2005 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by hashi2008 hashi2008 wrote:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896& ;e=15&u=/nm/religion_evolution_dc


This is so friggin' stupid. I doubt even the most liberal person on this forum could justify this.


I'll agree with you as soon as a law gets passed requiring the church to put a disclaimer in all bibles saying "God is a theory, not a fact, and must be approached with an open, if not shallow mind"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DrunkDriver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 12:13am
What a wonderous age we live in: we need stickers to tell us fact from opinon, objective from subjective.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacBacpaintball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:43pm
i think this sticker thing should be legal because everybody has the right to say stuff and thats called "Freedom Of Speach". usa passed this law like 20-60 years ago. im not exacly sure when though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:44pm

errr.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frozen Balls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:45pm
Originally posted by JacBacpaintball JacBacpaintball wrote:

i think this sticker thing should be legal because everybody has the right to say stuff and thats called "Freedom Of Speach". usa passed this law like 20-60 years ago. im not exacly sure when though.


You must get all the honorable mention awards at school.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Oh please.  One doesn't have to be "liberal" to see that this is the correct decision.


Do you see a sticker on your engineering textbook that says that "structural theory is just a theory and should be viewed with an open mind"?  How about a sticker on the psych book that says that "behavioral theory is just a theory..." etc.


Of course not.  In engineering class they teach engineering; in psych class they taech psychology; in biology class they teach biology.  If they want to teach evolution, they should go ahead - in comparative religion.


There are a zillion places stickers like this could have been put, but were not.  Evolution was singled out.  It is an obvious attempt by government officials to impose religious views on the public, and should be prohibited.


Legally speaking, this is a no-brainer.  They never had a chance.



Except that evolution IS a religious belief... So all they're accomplishing is lopsided representation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by SebastianBlack SebastianBlack wrote:

Originally posted by hashi2008 hashi2008 wrote:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1896& ;e=15&u=/nm/religion_evolution_dc


This is so friggin' stupid. I doubt even the most liberal person on this forum could justify this.


I'll agree with you as soon as a law gets passed requiring the church to put a disclaimer in all bibles saying "God is a theory, not a fact, and must be approached with an open, if not shallow mind"


Oh please... People choose to go to church because they already believe. Kids are legally forced to go to school and shouldn't have other people's religious beliefs forced on them, whether it be the existence of a god or the lack of one. The two aren't even close to equivalent arguments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tippy_182 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Darur Darur wrote:

Pardon me asking, but how does that sticker push creationsim?  I read it about 30 times and I dont see it.

Read in a vacuum, it does not push anything.  This was the point made by the supporters of the sticker.

But we do not live in a vacuum.  When viewed in societal context, the sticker attempts to discredit one particular scientific theory.  By not attempting to discredit other theories, the sticker singles out this one theory.  This one theory (evolution) happens to be perpetually embroiled in religious controversy.  There is no apparent reason to single out this one theory for discredit, other than religious motivation.  And that makes it unconstitutional.

It doesn't push creationism - it discredits evolution for religious motivations.  Different approach, same motivation.



So now your basing it on assumption that it was the creationists who were behind it...

I hope Mr. Bush starts using more of his morals on his country.

He doesn't have to worry about re-election anymore, he shall own.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:53pm

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:


Except that evolution IS a religious belief... .

Evolutionary theory may happen to coincide with some religious/quasi-religious views, but so does astronomy, prime number theory, feng shui, and certain diets.  That doesn't mean that those are religious beliefs for purposes of the First Amendment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:53pm
In case anyone has lost track, churches ARE religious organizations and are allowed to preach their beliefs as fact. Schools ARE NOT religious organizations are ARE NOT allowed to teach their religious beliefs as fact, whether that be evolution or otherwise.

The original poster of this thread is rightfully pointing to a judicially enforced double standard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 5:54pm

Originally posted by tippy_182 tippy_182 wrote:

So now your basing it on assumption that it was the creationists who were behind it...

I hope Mr. Bush starts using more of his morals on his country.

He doesn't have to worry about re-election anymore, he shall own.

I don't understand any part of this post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

Except that evolution IS a religious belief... .


Evolutionary theory may happen to coincide with some religious/quasi-religious views, but so does astronomy, prime number theory, feng shui, and certain diets.  That doesn't mean that those are religious beliefs for purposes of the First Amendment.



You could say the same for creationism. While Christianity is the most popular, and thereby most maligned, religion with this theory of origin, it is not by far the only religion to believe life was created by some kind of higher power.

The fact is, and there's no way you can logically deny this, the teaching of evolution as fact IS an endorsement of a religion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:02pm

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:


The fact is, and there's no way you can logically deny this, the teaching of evolution as fact IS an endorsement of a religion.

Here's logic:

Evolution is science.  Creationism is not science.

Therefore, in science class, we teach evolution.

Any apparent endorsement of religion in the process in entirely incidental.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:03pm
The overriding problem here is some people's inability to see their own beliefs for what they are... Faith is faith, whether it's faith in nothing or faith in something.

The ONLY proper stance for our government entities is to avoid the issue entirely and take no stance at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

The fact is, and there's no way you can logically deny this, the teaching of evolution as fact IS an endorsement of a religion.


Here's logic:


Evolution is science.  Creationism is not science.


Therefore, in science class, we teach evolution.


Any apparent endorsement of religion in the process in entirely incidental.



You have no solid justification for the stance that creationism isn't every bit as scientific as evolution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:05pm
But anyway... I have work to do. There's an imbalance in your thinking that needs addressed. Hopefully some day you'll recognize it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 January 2005 at 6:06pm

Well, to the extent that believing in science is faith, then yes, I have faith in science and science is my religion.

But by that standard, this computer is a religious instrument, and the government should not be allowed to own computers.  Or tanks.  Or telephones.  Or clothes.  Or anything else that is the result of science.

It is all science.  Singling out evolution as somehow "different" than other scientific theory is simply flat-earthing.

Although I am curious as to why the same sticker was not applied to books discussing the Big Bang.

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