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Iraq new terrorist breeding ground

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Banshee11B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banshee11B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 5:52pm
Ok, and part of me can't believe I'm being drawn into this, I have a few questions, especially since you seem unwilling to comment upon my last post...

1st: You stated "Most of Iraq still without the basic infrastructure such as water and electricity." That is a little vague... what does most mean? Or is this rhetoric? I am interested in how many people, population-wise, have no water or electricity that had it before. Because these problems could easily been there before. If you look at The United Nations Joint Logistics center report on electricity that the problem might be outdated facilities not us. When addressing this concern I would like to quote their report... "Baghdad South Power Station illustrates this problem well. This 1950's plant, with its obsolescent technology, continues to function, but often with only one or two of its six units. Elsewhere, it would have been closed down years ago. However, because of the dire need for electricity and the difficulty in building new power stations, the Iraqi authorities have no option but to keep the plant going. Units are started, work for a few days, and then break down again with boiler leaks caused by corroded pipes. The pipes are patched up with poor quality welding, and then the units restarted – until they break down again. Even when working, the units operate at well below their rated output and pollute the surrounding area as indicated.

The Coalition Provisional Authority and Ministry had undertaken a massive programme to procure replacement parts for power stations, including new boiler tubes for Baghdad South. In most cases, it falls to Ministry engineers to fit these parts. They do not always have the requisite skills to do so. Moreover, the state of the power stations is such that practically everything needs fixing.

The long-term solution to this problem is to build new, modern power stations. In the meantime, the existing plants need to be rehabilitated and maintained so that they continue to function as well as they can. It should be understood, however, that, unless the old units are fully rehabilitated, their reliability and output will always be low."

Did we bring with us these power plants? How long does it take to build a power plant capable of handling a city the size of Baghdad? Let alone help an entire country?

2nd: "Concrete being imported from other countries for $1000 per slab under Halliburton contracts, when they could be made in Iraq for $100 and employ somebody." I would like to see where you got this from. Since when does a country import slabs of concrete? And I would like to emphasize the word slab for a moment... Who imports slabs? besides concrete, basically, is a mix of sand, stone, and cement with water. Cement is grinding limestone and clay. If you would take a look at the geology of Iraq you'll notice that this is one area that they are not lacking in. They have plants over there that make this. If you want the email of a contractor, who's been there, PM me and I will get you in touch.

Lastly you said you led combat patrols in the former yugoslavia as an Army Captain. I would love to know your unit. Infantry? When was a patrol a "Company-level" operation? Isn't that a squad to platoon level operation? And if you are doing a Company size patrol I thought that was specifically to setup a Battalion size operation? I guess I am interested in what you mean by the word "combat" and why there would be a company commander leading a patrol. Were you part of a Coalition Support Team(CST)? because while they were doing patrols up to 2002 a CST usually consists of six people. Now you said that you were there 10 years ago. The SFOR's (Stabilisation Force)Project Harvest started in 1998 when SFOR began to collect and destroy unregistered weapons and ordnance in private hands. but that was 6 years ago... Now there was a report from Second Brigade of the Third Infantry Division of the U.S. Army, which contributes most of the American forces involved in Bosnia, Which reports a deterioration of soldiering skills. "Soldiers from this Brigade have difficulty maintaining even their basic skills with tank guns, because the soldiers’ ordinary peacekeeping duties do not provide outlets to practice traditional military skills" According to William Langewiesche, "when the American military maintains a peacekeeping force (and he sites the Kosovo and Bosnia missions). The missions of these peacekeepers differ from traditional military campaigns of the past in that the peacekeepers have no predetermined enemy to fight. Instead, the peacekeepers’ orders are to prevent fighting from occurring. Beyond that, the peacekeepers have no set goals; they have no objectives to take, cities to seize, or lines to breach".

Is that the type of combat patrol you are referring? I know what patch, and I will let you know which of the 2 I am authorized I have sewn on, I wear on my right shoulder... I am interested in which one you do.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:11pm
Just a warning, prepare for the personal attack tact from the usual suspects, since facts again interfered with the approved retoric.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:13pm

Originally posted by Banshee11B Banshee11B wrote:

Ok, and part of me can't believe I'm being drawn into this, I have a few questions, especially since you seem unwilling to comment upon my last post...

1st: You stated "Most of Iraq still without the basic infrastructure such as water and electricity." That is a little vague... what does most mean? Or is this rhetoric? I am interested in how many people, population-wise, have no water or electricity that had it before. Because these problems could easily been there before. If you look at The United Nations Joint Logistics center report on electricity that the problem might be outdated facilities not us. When addressing this concern I would like to quote their report... "Baghdad South Power Station illustrates this problem well. This 1950's plant, with its obsolescent technology, continues to function, but often with only one or two of its six units. Elsewhere, it would have been closed down years ago. However, because of the dire need for electricity and the difficulty in building new power stations, the Iraqi authorities have no option but to keep the plant going. Units are started, work for a few days, and then break down again with boiler leaks caused by corroded pipes. The pipes are patched up with poor quality welding, and then the units restarted – until they break down again. Even when working, the units operate at well below their rated output and pollute the surrounding area as indicated.

The Coalition Provisional Authority and Ministry had undertaken a massive programme to procure replacement parts for power stations, including new boiler tubes for Baghdad South. In most cases, it falls to Ministry engineers to fit these parts. They do not always have the requisite skills to do so. Moreover, the state of the power stations is such that practically everything needs fixing.

The long-term solution to this problem is to build new, modern power stations. In the meantime, the existing plants need to be rehabilitated and maintained so that they continue to function as well as they can. It should be understood, however, that, unless the old units are fully rehabilitated, their reliability and output will always be low."

Did we bring with us these power plants? How long does it take to build a power plant capable of handling a city the size of Baghdad? Let alone help an entire country?

2nd: "Concrete being imported from other countries for $1000 per slab under Halliburton contracts, when they could be made in Iraq for $100 and employ somebody." I would like to see where you got this from. Since when does a country import slabs of concrete? And I would like to emphasize the word slab for a moment... Who imports slabs? besides concrete, basically, is a mix of sand, stone, and cement with water. Cement is grinding limestone and clay. If you would take a look at the geology of Iraq you'll notice that this is one area that they are not lacking in. They have plants over there that make this. If you want the email of a contractor, who's been there, PM me and I will get you in touch.

Lastly you said you led combat patrols in the former yugoslavia as an Army Captain. I would love to know your unit. Infantry? When was a patrol a "Company-level" operation? Isn't that a squad to platoon level operation? And if you are doing a Company size patrol I thought that was specifically to setup a Battalion size operation? I guess I am interested in what you mean by the word "combat" and why there would be a company commander leading a patrol. Were you part of a Coalition Support Team(CST)? because while they were doing patrols up to 2002 a CST usually consists of six people. Now you said that you were there 10 years ago. The SFOR's (Stabilisation Force)Project Harvest started in 1998 when SFOR began to collect and destroy unregistered weapons and ordnance in private hands. but that was 6 years ago... Now there was a report from Second Brigade of the Third Infantry Division of the U.S. Army, which contributes most of the American forces involved in Bosnia, Which reports a deterioration of soldiering skills. "Soldiers from this Brigade have difficulty maintaining even their basic skills with tank guns, because the soldiers’ ordinary peacekeeping duties do not provide outlets to practice traditional military skills" According to William Langewiesche, "when the American military maintains a peacekeeping force (and he sites the Kosovo and Bosnia missions). The missions of these peacekeepers differ from traditional military campaigns of the past in that the peacekeepers have no predetermined enemy to fight. Instead, the peacekeepers’ orders are to prevent fighting from occurring. Beyond that, the peacekeepers have no set goals; they have no objectives to take, cities to seize, or lines to breach".

Is that the type of combat patrol you are referring? I know what patch, and I will let you know which of the 2 I am authorized I have sewn on, I wear on my right shoulder... I am interested in which one you do.


Okay, this is the ONLY time I will defend the validity of my statements about my career, and will NOT be drawn off the course of this thread.

I deployed with the 2nd Armor Division. I was company XO of HHC, 11th AVN REGT (V Corps) as a 2LT, CM. The original mission was IFOR, which began in 1996. There was no bridge over the sava river when I went, just a floating version.

I led patrols through the area outside of Tuzla (google it, and tell me how lame it was). Did I get shot at, no. Were people shooting each other daily? yes. I have been personally in riots, minefields, and mobs. I drew my weapon with the intent to put holes in someone, but didn't.

Do I wear a combat patch? no. Did I receive combat zone pay and combat zone tax exclusion? yes.

Now if you want to keep pissing on my military record, have at it.

The concrete slabs are the pre-fab walls around the "green zone" I will get the link for you in a little bit.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:28pm
I never questioned your service, only your objectivity as you were a serving officer in a combat zone while dealing with civilain news media, and hopefully questioning the medias representations of events and differing reports based on your actual expierience, and the medias representation of the same events. We both know that facts and events as reported are usually suspect in the media, and I do not see this event in Iraq/Afganistan to be any differant. My major concern is the effect of this media bias on the morale and the safety of the soldiers in harms way at the present time.

Today we see the Gulf of Tonkin Incident for what it was, most of the reporting on Desert Storm differs greatly from what I expierienced on review when I returned, so when history judges this event, and comes to its conclussion years from now, my hope is that there is a truth, not a biased media perception taught to those who once again will serve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banshee11B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:37pm
I am not trying to "piss" on anyone's record. You said you were a Captain... I just wanted some clarification. If you took offense by having to validate your position, so be it. You might want to rethink your purpose of this thread. You were looking to either get validation for your beliefs or were interested in the view of others on this subject. You got my opinion and now believe that I am a part of "pissing" on your career. I am leaning toward the idea of validation since you have never once acknowledge a valid point that isn't partisan with your perceptions. I just want you to address a simple question. Is it better to be in a centralized location where you can deal with enemy forces, unless you don't think that there are any terrorists coming to fight, or is it better to play a reactive role and wait until they attack us again?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:37pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

I never questioned your service, only your objectivity as you were a serving officer in a combat zone while dealing with civilain news media, and hopefully questioning the medias representations of events and differing reports based on your actual expierience, and the medias representation of the same events. We both know that facts and events as reported are usually suspect in the media, and I do not see this event in Iraq/Afganistan to be any differant. My major concern is the effect of this media bias on the morale and the safety of the soldiers in harms way at the present time.

Today we see the Gulf of Tonkin Incident for what it was, most of the reporting on Desert Storm differs greatly from what I expierienced on review when I returned, so when history judges this event, and comes to its conclussion years from now, my hope is that there is a truth, not a biased media perception taught to those who once again will serve.

My HEAT round was for banshee11-bullet stopper. He needed a history lesson.

As far as the media, there wasn't a whole lot of coverage, except for when the three soldiers who were kidnapped in Kosovo (after I was back in Germany), and they reported it as "all's well", when they actually got the crap kicked out of them for 30 days before Rev. Jesse got them free.

I absolutely agree with you that the media is biased one way or another, but I feel that you have to look at the mountain of bad news and see that things are not going so well in Iraq. There was no bad news on TV about Bosnia because it was basically successful. I do not know why the media did not cover what was bad, such as the riots in Gajevi and Brcko, but they didn't. I think Clinton was diddling Monica at the time.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by Banshee11B Banshee11B wrote:

I am not trying to "piss" on anyone's record. You said you were a Captain... I just wanted some clarification. If you took offense by having to validate your position, so be it. You might want to rethink your purpose of this thread. You were looking to either get validation for your beliefs or were interested in the view of others on this subject. You got my opinion and now believe that I am a part of "pissing" on your career. I am leaning toward the idea of validation since you have never once acknowledge a valid point that isn't partisan with your perceptions. I just want you to address a simple question. Is it better to be in a centralized location where you can deal with enemy forces, unless you don't think that there are any terrorists coming to fight, or is it better to play a reactive role and wait until they attack us again?

Why did we need to create another point in Iraq, if the intent was to draw terrorists to us, when we could have concentrated our forces in Afghanistan and do the job right?

I will check back in a couple hours. "house 6" is not happy watching me pay more attention to you than her on my night off. She goes to bed soon.....

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 6:48pm
If we could balance the "bad" news and "good" news reporting of events, then we could be objective. But the current bias and "if it bleeds it leads" media approach raises way too many questions, from those who have served, since we are familiar with the demon of media.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banshee11B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 7:28pm
I am not saying that we needed to invade Iraq for any purpose. What I am saying is that we are there now. Instead of bemoaning the situation lets use it to our advantage for once, instead of bailing as soon as things get tough. There is a dedicated enemy out to get us wherever we roam. They found a GPS tracker from a SF soldier that was killed in Somalia in a hill in Afghanistan. Coincidence? They came to Somalia to kill americans. They came to Afghanistan for the same purpose. Now they are coming to Iraq. So what should we do? Leave Iraq? Validating their existence further by making them believe that if they attack we retreat, and will continue to do so? This is a precedence that WE have set. So how do we handle it? Cutting our losses? Deposing a leader and suddenly turning the reigns to them and saying "Well isn't this a suprise? You figure it out". You see how that went when the USSR was ousted out of Afghanistan... So instead if backing down why don't we use what we have. Put in place an effective, properly outfitted, and lethal fighting force. Take the fight to them. Show a powerful resolve to establish a mature and capable democratic Iraqi government that doesn't have to worry about the massive infrastructure problems. When we have actually have achieved stability and a set of definable objectives, that is the time to leave. I am not happy about being in Iraq. I was not happy about the invasion. I certainly did not vote for Bush this past election. I think that we need to deal with our problems at hand and not try to sweep them under the table like we usually do... Anytime you think that I need a history lesson, feel free. I love history, the study of it should prevent us from repeating the same mistakes. I wish it was more of a requirement for those who like to put us bullet-stopper's into nasty situation's and then make our sacrifices for naught when they pull us out before the mission is complete.

Edited by Banshee11B
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tae Kwon Do Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 7:58pm

Originally posted by Banshee11B Banshee11B wrote:

IThey found a GPS tracker from a SF soldier that was killed in Somalia in a hill in Afghanistan. Coincidence? They came to Somalia to kill americans. They came to Afghanistan for the same purpose. Now they are coming to Iraq.

Could I see some proof for that GPS thing please?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 8:10pm
Would you guys please make smaller posts so it's easier to attack you?  Geez.  These manifestos are bad for business. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banshee11B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 8:24pm
This is the News story:

Somalia firefight clue found in Afghan cave

Oliver Burkeman in New York and Rory McCarthy in Kabul
Thursday March 21, 2002


American soldiers searching a cave in the Afghan mountains have discovered a satellite positioning device that apparently belonged to a US commando killed in the disastrous raid in Somalia in 1993.

Defence officials said that the global positioning receiver, found in an ice-covered cave near Gardez in the east of the country, might confirm what they have suspected for years - that it was Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida terrorist network that masterminded the deaths of 18 American special forces troops in a firefight in the Somali capital of Mogadishu.

"We've said all along that we suspected al-Qaida of being a worldwide network," Brigadier-General John Rosa, of the US Air Force, told reporters at a briefing yesterday. "This piece we currently think originated from Somalia will obviously tie - could obviously tie - al-Qaida to Somalia."

The discovery came as US military and intelligence chiefs warned of an upsurge in guerrilla-style attacks from al-Qaida and Taliban forces in Afghanistan when the snows melt in a few weeks' time.

As concern continued to grow among British backbench MPs of a possible "mission creep" in Afghanistan, the CIA director, George Tenet, warned that al-Qaida terrorists were poised to step up their activities following the spring thaw. He told the Senate armed services committee that the conflict was "entering into another phase here that actually is more difficult because you're probably looking at smaller units who intend to really operate against you in a classic insurgency format".

The GPS device, which allows its user to determine their precise location anywhere on the earth's surface, came complete with its original carrying pouch and a label reading "G Gordon" - linking it to Master Sergeant Gary Gordon, who was 33 when he was killed in a firefight with militants.

He was one of two soldiers to receive the prestigious Medal of Honour for his role in the bloody Somalia debacle, currently being retold on the cinema screen in the movie Black Hawk Down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 10:59pm

Originally posted by Banshee11B Banshee11B wrote:

I am not saying that we needed to invade Iraq for any purpose. What I am saying is that we are there now. Instead of bemoaning the situation lets use it to our advantage for once, instead of bailing as soon as things get tough. There is a dedicated enemy out to get us wherever we roam. They found a GPS tracker from a SF soldier that was killed in Somalia in a hill in Afghanistan. Coincidence? They came to Somalia to kill americans. They came to Afghanistan for the same purpose. Now they are coming to Iraq. So what should we do? Leave Iraq? Validating their existence further by making them believe that if they attack we retreat, and will continue to do so? This is a precedence that WE have set. So how do we handle it? Cutting our losses? Deposing a leader and suddenly turning the reigns to them and saying "Well isn't this a suprise? You figure it out". You see how that went when the USSR was ousted out of Afghanistan... So instead if backing down why don't we use what we have. Put in place an effective, properly outfitted, and lethal fighting force. Take the fight to them. Show a powerful resolve to establish a mature and capable democratic Iraqi government that doesn't have to worry about the massive infrastructure problems. When we have actually have achieved stability and a set of definable objectives, that is the time to leave. I am not happy about being in Iraq. I was not happy about the invasion. I certainly did not vote for Bush this past election. I think that we need to deal with our problems at hand and not try to sweep them under the table like we usually do... Anytime you think that I need a history lesson, feel free. I love history, the study of it should prevent us from repeating the same mistakes. I wish it was more of a requirement for those who like to put us bullet-stopper's into nasty situation's and then make our sacrifices for naught when they pull us out before the mission is complete.

The most intelligent pro-war point of view I have read in two years at Tippmann, seriously. However, I think that making this happen is going to involve about 500,000 troops which means draft, and then the bemoaning will really begin.

I agree that it isn't time to pull out yet. However, when is the right time? Do we let the body count slowly creep up to 10,000, then 20,000, and before you know it, we are in a full-blown Vietnam? Someone (me), needs to keep a tight rein on the government with constant badgering over their shady deals and constant goatscrews.

Finally, 11-bullet stopper is a term of endearment. I spent 150 of the best days of my life in Hohenfels with the 1ID. You know how it is, you can trash someone's politics or their momma all day, but questioning their military service is getting personal.

P.S. you sound like "Joe Snuffy"

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 January 2005 at 11:13pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

If we could balance the "bad" news and "good" news reporting of events, then we could be objective. But the current bias and "if it bleeds it leads" media approach raises way too many questions, from those who have served, since we are familiar with the demon of media.

O.S. I know I needle the crap out of you, but I really need to know: Why do you keep writing off everything that goes against your beliefs about Bush or the war?

The coalition is falling apart. It has gotten so bad that the white house doesn't keep a list any longer.

Everything that we went to fight for has proven baseless. There are no WMDs, links to al-qaeda, etc. Bush ignored all of the people who were the experts and told him not to go, and they were right.

Whether the media is biased or not, it is a freaking meat grinder in Iraq. At what point do we cut our losses and pull out? Do you think that the elections next weekend are going to change anything? They will come and go, and the whitehouse will put another carrot in front of your nose. While you are chasing that carrot for 2-3 months, the soldiers continue to die, and the oil continues to flow.

Surely you see these things for yourself. At what point do you change your politics? There is more to this than "the guy I voted won."

Give these some thought before you respond.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:38am
Fair question....

As we all know all opinions are usually based on personal expierience, or information we read, view or otherwise shape our personalities.

First off lets look back, a long time ago in places far far away I personally took part in events where we as Americans promised to support peoples in their "fight" against oppression. Once as a young man I wandered the hills and vallies, taught a people how to defend themselves from guerillas that they did not support, shared their lives, thier meals and guarded them at night as they slept in peace. I saw the faces the trust, the small glimpse these people were allowed to see of America. I also saw how those at home saw what we were doing as wrong, how the Heroric Peoples Army were fighting the imperialists, listened to Hanoi radio and how all was lost at home, and we should give up. I also saw how the Heroric Peoples Army treated those who did not conform to their views of the world. At the same time I saw how the media destroyed our morale, brought a lowered standard of alertness, and how in my opinion many were lost by the medias support of those who wanted to oppress a people, and do me and those like me harm. And in April 1975, when we abandoned these people to those we knew were not as forgiving as we were, and the pleads and scenes of the Vietnamese people, we as a generation doubted those who questioned what we knew happened, as compared to what the media told them.


Again later as a Special Forces Sergeant later in my career the nightmare returned, we supported a people shared thier lives, showed them a glimpse of America, and we again abandoned them as a political expiediant, and there are still nightmares of what happened to a little doe eyed girl who in the pouring rain sat with this big SF Sergeant and shared crackers and peanut butter. Her taste of America. And weeks later when we returned to the ville it was burned to the ground, by the peoples guerillas?, who knows but we buried the bodies, 6 rather large SF types tears in our eyes, and once again we packed up and eventually left, abandoning people who for a moment shared what we have here.

My opinions and bias is seeing the nightmare again, we promised a people that we would let them see freedom, be it just or right in the larger political sense, who gives a rats arse, the people we have helped have in all truth have almost signed their death warrent in the hands of religious radicals. That is my morale cause.

As many here know, I was, am and will allways be a soldier. No matter what cause or what President sends my brothers and sisters into harms way, I will support them and the powers that be, for I have seen what happens first hand to our soldiers, and those who put their trust in us for that moment in history. I am reliving a nightmare I personally expierienced, and the morale of those deployed and their families at home having their sacrifice and duty belittled daily on the 6 o'clock news, rarely a positive story, only doom and gloom death and destruction, how we are destined to fail, and once history again judges us on our support of freinds and those we promise "freedom", and to abandon a people who were oppressed, under the fear of death by thier leaders for doing what we here in america see as a right, again in the eyes of the world give question to the trust they can have in America.

If we were allowed to persue this war without the anal exam of every decesion made, support what we are doing for the average Iraqi, and not have the media tell us that we are destined to fail as they do everything they can to destroy any chance of success, that is why I do what I do. History will judge this war, as Vietnam was judged, as Honduras/Nicaragua was someday historians will say this is what should have been done, and the only losers in these wars are not the Polititians, Americans who protested, nor the soldiers that fought there, it is the face of a mother in fear as we Americans tell the world we are abandoning her to something she fears more, and as she pleads for us to take her child to keep her from dieing in the oncoming genocide brought on by those who will for no other reason than pure glee, inflict hell on earth to those who made in their eyes a decesion to trust America, and will forever regret it.

All this "bravo sierra" of war for oil, wmd's, and all the political crap to me means nothing, to me it is our soldiers who need support, and I will do all I can to support those who will support them, not try to make their sacrifice seem trivial and useless and for thier political aganda. And the day we see the panic of the average Iraqi if we decide to abandon them for a political expiediancy, and the pleads and the total fear in thier eyes, only then if those who care to actually try will they question what they di today.

I along with many others cried in April 1975, for what ever we did for those the media saw as expendable was then seen as a failure. And the nightmare I live every so often of that ville we were forced to walk away from and leave to their own devices, and that little doe eyed girl that for a moment trusted me who I buried have formed my opinions on this war.

War is never something that solves all the worlds problems, but for some unknown reasons those who see fit put soldiers and civilians into a situation where to go foward means uncertanty, to go back leads to events worse than moving foward. Ask any Vietnamese who ran, flew, pleaded and cried for us not to leave, go to Louisianna or Texas, go to the Vietnamese communities and ask them why they trusted us then, and why they are here now.

Long ranting by a passion fueled by expierience and nightmares never to leave, and my faith will allways be to my brothers and sisters in uniform, as well as those who are putting thier trust in America, hoping to have what we have, and to live for once without fear and oppression.
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Banshee11B View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Banshee11B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 10:45am
OS,

You through both eloquence of word and action stated what I never could have. Amen Top
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 5:56pm

I'll go ahead and bump this so more people can read this.

Hopefully it should end most of the arguments.

Nicely put OS.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 7:06pm

How are the South Vietnamese enjoying thier freedom now, O.S? Was it worth 55,000 service members lives so that nothing was changed? What if we had pulled out years before, and saved 40,000 lives?

The overwhelming majority of conservatives call sticking yellow ribbons on your trunk lid supporting troops while they are slaughtered in a meat grinder. I am taking the more direct approach, and calling for them to be brought home. If the Iraqis want freedom bad enough, they will win it. You cannot force democracy on someone.

5-10 years and 50,000 body bags from now, we will be pulling out of Iraq with our tail between our legs. And it will have been for a few million barrels of oil and nothing else. March 19th I will be in Washington D.C. protesting this debacle to get my brothers out of that mess. They were sent there on a fools errand that has nothing to do with protecting our country and have no obligation to die there.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote goodsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 7:38pm
Originally posted by Bango Bango wrote:

I'll go ahead and bump this so more people can read this.

Hopefully it should end most of the arguments.

Nicely put OS.

Doubtful. I and 60% of America believe that leaving soldiers to die in Iraq for nothing is fundamentally wrong. Only facts will end my arguments, not ideology.

"Reading this thread, I'm sad to say that the only difference between the average American and the average Taliban is economic status."
-Zesty

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 January 2005 at 8:05pm
Each to our own, and fly the flag of choice, and seeing how you never truely expierienced any of this up close and personal, it is safe to have the views you do for you will never have the nightmares, see the faces, hear the screams, images of horror and pain of your brothers and those we choose to protect, then abandon. To stand by and watch as others suffer has never been the choice of America in my view, and opinion. As for the South Vietnamese, being better off, please go down to the Gulf Coast and ask them yourself, those who fled the communists, and those who survived the re-education camps, and the vengence of the Heroic Peoples Armies, and came here for the promise, that we as a nation reniged on in 1972 and again in 1975. And then go to Washington, stand and look upon the wall, and then ask the old man to your left or right, with the illfitting fatigue jacket covered in patches, tears in his eyes, memories flooding heart and mind, if it was worth it, you will be surprised at the answer, believe me.

It is easy as I said to judge history based on the media representation and historical revision. But those of us who gave a damn, who tried, who died, who still have the pain in our hearts and minds, will tell you a differant story.

I am of the opinion that if we leave the Iraqis to their fate, we are guilty of an attrocity greater than many here care to invision. The wrathe of those willing and wanting to exact vengence on the innocent, whose only crime was to have a faith in America and a promise, while we here forget and pretend we do not see is too high a price for those of us who have seen it and feel the guilt all these years later.

And if we were allowed to fight this war, without the media anal exam, to go on the offensive, take the war to the terrorist, not to sit by political correctness and media bias as targets, to complete the mission, maybe there will be no more body bags. The American fighting man can and has proven he can overcome if he is lead by leaders who understand, not political leaders with an agenda, and backsides to protect, or a media again with an agenda. Or do we wait till some other religious zealot backed by some other tyrant gives us reason to fill another 3000 or 10,000, or 100,000 body bags here in America.

Isolationism in todays global inviorement and with todays weapons technology is suicidal. We will be seen as weak, unwilling and corrupt, for again we abandon what we started and left another group of people to suffer.

I volunteered to go again, as an advisor, civilian contractor, whatever, to maybe complete a mission, forfilling a promise, that I was sent on in 1969. And if you as an ex military man can not understand that simple basic human trait, then I can not nor will I ever change your views till another inevitable act against America here in America proves me right.

Quote..."I bet you'd feel differently about Iraq if you were there, holding your spleen"

By the way Combat wounded in Vietnam, 3 times, and still limp more now with age, wounded in Honduras, Grenada, Desert Storm and I do not feel any differant about Iraq.....To give those oppressed even a moments peace, and maybe even a small glimpse and hope of what we here take for granted, to me and others like me will allways be worth it, and I will allways be proud and look back....."It twas the best of times, twas the worst of times" and if you do not understand as I said, I truely feel sorry for you.

PS...Since when is fighting and defending those oppressed, and unable to fight for themselves, to let them share and have what we here in America take for granted..considered..."nothing", again many here in America can afford to be brave, up to 80% of Iraqis under fear of potential death are willing for the first time in thier lives do something only 60% of us here in America choose to do with no fear.....a basic human right to voice their true opinion and vote.................but to many here that is seen as "wrong" and for "nothing".....incredable.........


Edited by oldsoldier
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