Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Snipers

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
Author
Dave_09 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 November 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 196
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dave_09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 January 2005 at 11:09pm
if u get a remote there is no need for an expansion chamber so just get a flatline red dot site 6 position stock remote and revvy just in case
tippmann 98 custom
ricochet apache
lapco bighsot
dye invision
coming soon:
response trigger
double trigger
bullet drop
expansion chamber
Back to Top
Liquid3 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Bigots & Bibles ROCK MY WORLD!!

Joined: 20 December 2004
Location: Isle Of Man
Status: Offline
Points: 1137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 9:50am
The only thing I want to add, right or wrong is that the military considers the farthest range we can hope to shoot at Close Quarters Engaugement. Shotguns are part of the weapon alotment. Hmmmm.
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 10:14am
Ok for all you wanna-bes let us consider a few needs of the marker to accomplish the mission.

#1 Accuracy- In this game enviorment accuracy over range would be the highest priority..so having a good paint/bore match...selected paintballs (no dimples, ridges, seams, dents,etc) and a proven gas system (modified venturi bolts, gas expansion in bore (thats why I use a siphon bottle and a modified valve/bolt assembly) and if you have to ask why siphon you do not understand gas expansion effects on balistics so move on.

#2 Low Profile- More times than not what gives away "Joe Sniper" is that huge round blob sticking up (the hopper)
and having all these gas do-dads under the marker requires shooter to have marker too high above the ground/cover to be unnoticed. (I use a SL68II and a cut down 10round tube to 5rd...)

#3 Stability- Has a profound effect on accuracy...stocks that are mismatched to shooters 8 steady hold factors detracts from #1.

#4 Proper Camoflauge- Too many troopers forget that "sticks do not move" and improperly camoflauge the barrel/muzzle of the marker..died burlap tied in simple cross patterns to break up outline would do wonders..(and presetting fire kill zone where marker does not radically move to aquire target is a help)


So all in all "machine guns are not "sniper rifles" adapting M98's and A5's with all the bobbles and whistles does not a sniper rifle make. Too many violations of the above.

So if you prefere to persue this "skill" find a good pump, modify the gas system, get a good long 14/16 in barrel (if I have to explain again you need to mover on)polish bore to a glow in the dark shine, prepack in 10round tubes "select" paintballs, find or make a good match to your body/shooting style stock, and get away from the "hollywood" sniper mentality.

The ability to have patience to wait for the "select shot" to do the most tactical damage, the disipline to fire that single shot from a well prepared position to avoid visual aquisition, and or immediate return fire. And the ability to "interdict" the enemy is the role of the sniper.....

Now as of this date, after almost 20years in the game I have yet to see this accomplished by anyone not formally trained in the skill (ie military trained and practiced in field arts).

Call yourself whatever, acting as whatever, but having a "combat multiplier" taken away from your team in order for you to feel "special" means that the remainder of your team has to make up for your lack of teamwork.
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 10:23am

The only place you will see a "sniper" role will be at a scenario game.  They do recon and scout work...if they are any good.  They can be used to hold up an advance (such as when a take and hold objective is in need of reinforcement) or to get in close so they can take out a couple key defensive players during a mission and help soften things up for the sweeper team. 

But in woodsball, and even more so in speedball, there is no way you can play the "role".  If you want to read a decent book that gives a perspective of snipers in small unit combat, there is a very famous book out there titled "Marine Sniper".  If you read it you'll notice that they were not always out of effective range of return fire and that many times their position was compromised, especially during night engagements when the targets could spot the muzzle flash.  However, we do not have days to camp out somewhere and wait for targets to appear (nor would I want to) so it comes right down to redefining what a sniper in paintball would be...because it will not be the same creature that a traditional military sniper would be.  Different physics means different rules. 

Oldsoildier had used the term "interdiction rifleman".  I like that. You're set up is about the same as mine right down to the cut off 10 round tube.  Difference is I got to use mine for Anit-Tank work. :)

As for the question, whenever you are upgrading your marker you have to ask yourself what is the end result I am trying to achieve out of the marker?  For "sniper" work, accuracy and consistancy is most important...even more so than range.  I've heard that the Flatline isn't the best barrel out there because of the fact you need to use a little smaller round than the barrel to achieve the effect.  Due to the inconsistancy in ball size, you will have some balls a bit smaller and some a bit larger. This will mean that the amount of air that bypasses the ball will vary with each shot leading to inconsistant velocity.  By going the route of a traditional barrel, while you'll loose the "flat" trajectory and extra distance the Flatline offers you will be able to get a paint to barrel match that allows for the ball to completely fill the barrel. This will mean that the amount of gas bypassing the balls due to size (and friction of the balls rubbing against the barrel) will vary less giving you more consistant shots. 

Sticking with consistancy you need a regulated air source too.  If you go HPA, the bottles already come with a regulator and you are set.  If you go CO2, then you will want to pick up a good regulator (I HIGHLY recommend Palmer's Stabilizer regulator for CO2).  If you put your bottle on a bottom line, make sure you have a bottle that has an anti-siphon tube in it (If you have on that doesn't, find a reputable shop that can install one for you) and possibly an expansion chamber just to be safe (the Palmer reg though should keep out almost all Liquid CO2 from your marker).  If you run remote, you don't need to worry about these things as your bottle will be upright and your remote line will act as an expansion chamber.

A stock is good for making the marker easier to aim accurately.  It helps to stabilize the marker.  While this may or may not help in paintball, I find it more comfortable to shoot with one than without one.  Personal preference there.

For any kind of sight look into red dot or reflex sights.  Scopes are nice for scout work but in actual aiming situations they are not worth a darn considering the ranges we are at.  Red Dots are designed for close quarter work and allow you to aim with both eyes open thus preserving your field of vision and keeping you from getting tunnel vision.

Lasers are absolutely useless.  I have one on my marker and it is only for looks...nothing else.  (It came with the marker)  It did help a bit when zeroing in my red dot...but that's about it.



Edited by Robotech
New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 10:35am
DO you understand the "burst" effect on the ball in barrel with any non liquid gas system, the deforming of the ball from the burst of gas immediately detracts from stable flight once ball clears muzzels along with the physics of the ball returning to round in flight as well as the aerodynamic turbulence caused by the misshaped ball makes any "burst" gas system detrimental to an accurate marker. Liquid CO2 injected directly to the bore behind the ball and allowed to expand along the bore means a high initial pressure uniform along the ball facing (hense minut or no ball deformation)and initial inertia developes uniformly and the remainder of bore travel closely resembles true firearms as the gas expansion progressively decreases along bore path and yet maintains a uniform pressure on the face of the ball.

Firing one round does not require regulators, expansion chambers and all these other do-dads if the gas system is properly set up and maintained, AGAIN 'Machine guns do not a sniper rifle make"
Back to Top
poamike View Drop Down
Member
Member

Guested

Joined: 25 October 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poamike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 11:28am
um... i can say this in 4 words not 4 paragahs "there are no snipers"
I need to read the rules on sig and avatar sizes.
Back to Top
evil_fingers View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Inappropriate sig

Joined: 27 March 2004
Location: Frisco Nor Cal
Status: Offline
Points: 7224
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 12:06pm
I knew this thread was gonna be in its 3rd page this morning (9:11am PST), Robotech has said the samething as I did...."paintball snipers only exists in scenario games ONLY! not in a regular game of woodsball!" and if you dont think so, then I suggest those wannabes should start reading them magazines like APG and PB2X that covers those type of games and if anyone remembers reading APG a few months ago last year of 04', APG did a cover story of D-Day Oaklahoma or Skirmish (with pictures of the scenario players)...APG stated in their cover story that there were classes on how to become a "scenario type sniper" being taught by a guy who is an active SWAT member and a avid paintballer himself, on what tactics did he teach, well one has to go to those type of games and find out fer themselves.....as fer the tactics, Imma let Oldsoldier, Tyger, Robotech or who ever knows more bout that stuff....Imma woodsball myself and no...I do not call myself a sniper and if I did, it would be stupid fer me to lay out a barrage of balls at the opposing team so my team mates can get in closer to take them out...
Do not steal....the government hates competition!
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 1:43pm

Uhmmmm...Actually during the Vietnam war Marine Scout/Snipers used the .50 cal MG as a sniper weapon.  Because of its rather slow ROF for a MG, the trigger could be pulled in such a way as to yield a single shot.  Rails were fitted to the MGs so that the Sniper teams could fit their high powered scopes to them.  But I digress...

Oldsoldier...I do not pretend to be an expert in such matters.  I will conceed that you may be perfectly correct in your statements for I have no way to either prove nor disprove them.  I do understand what it is you are saying and the basics behind it (as I had done so even before your post). 

However I doubt someone asking such a question has the knowledge and ability to redesign his propellant delivery system in such a way.  Thus I was providing him with things he can get off the shelf to improve the marker's consistancy. 

While I would love to see your set up and try a marker with a liquid CO2 system such as you describe, the fact remains that we are firing spherical projectiles and the effects of Vortex Shedding will contribute greatly to their inaccuracy.



Edited by Robotech
New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
paintbitter View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 May 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 138
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote paintbitter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 2:46pm
the second i saw the name of the tread i thought, oh no
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
Back to Top
oldsoldier View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

Frequent target of infantile obsessives

Joined: 10 June 2002
Status: Offline
Points: 6544
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 2:58pm
Ok since a history lesson is upcoming.....

The M2HB .50BMG was and can be used as a "long range interdiction piece" within certian conditions and set ups. First understand the the .50 M2HB Machinegun under the Geneva Convention 1947 is NOT to be used against ground troops (just thought I would throw that in seeing todays pention for the Laws of War)

The M2HB utilizing the An-PVS2 or PVS4 sight mounted on a well snadbagged and weighted stable tripod with nylon washers on the U-mount (minimize the "wobble" of the mount)and a very tight and well maintained T+E mechanizum (traverse and elevation)was capable of shot in excess of 1500meters. The butterfly can be set to semi as well as full automatic. Point targets can and were engaged at night and sometimes day, and no self respecting VC or NVA was going to move around out in the open anywhere near a Army or Marine Firebase because M2HB's were standard issue defensive weapons of the era. The weapon was a point defense weapon, and to heavy and unstable to fire unsupported and without adequite set up time. BTDT.............

The XM21 and the M24 were the sniper weapons of choice, and a few M1903A5's were floating around.

As for scenario "paintball" snipers, having "generaled" many events I can not for the life of me see why any "leader" would minimize his "projected combat power" with snipers in this enviorment. The Reigns of Ruin OMHW game was a prime example, gave a "sniper" mission to a group of jumping up and down in anticipation OSOK players and guess what a mission failure, not even close to accomplishment. Well organized small recon teams are better suited to the game.

As for SWAT snipers giving training......differant animal, differant techniques and applications....military instructors would be more adept in giving this training (as I have done at several TWC's)
Back to Top
poamike View Drop Down
Member
Member

Guested

Joined: 25 October 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poamike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 2:59pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Ok since a history lesson is upcoming.....

The M2HB .50BMG was and can be used as a "long range interdiction piece" within certian conditions and set ups. First understand the the .50 M2HB Machinegun under the Geneva Convention 1947 is NOT to be used against ground troops (just thought I would throw that in seeing todays pention for the Laws of War)

The M2HB utilizing the An-PVS2 or PVS4 sight mounted on a well snadbagged and weighted stable tripod with nylon washers on the U-mount (minimize the "wobble" of the mount)and a very tight and well maintained T+E mechanizum (traverse and elevation)was capable of shot in excess of 1500meters. The butterfly can be set to semi as well as full automatic. Point targets can and were engaged at night and sometimes day, and no self respecting VC or NVA was going to move around out in the open anywhere near a Army or Marine Firebase because M2HB's were standard issue defensive weapons of the era. The weapon was a point defense weapon, and to heavy and unstable to fire unsupported and without adequite set up time. BTDT.............

The XM21 and the M24 were the sniper weapons of choice, and a few M1903A5's were floating around.

As for scenario "paintball" snipers, having "generaled" many events I can not for the life of me see why any "leader" would minimize his "projected combat power" with snipers in this enviorment. The Reigns of Ruin OMHW game was a prime example, gave a "sniper" mission to a group of jumping up and down in anticipation OSOK players and guess what a mission failure, not even close to accomplishment. Well organized small recon teams are better suited to the game.

As for SWAT snipers giving training......differant animal, differant techniques and applications....military instructors would be more adept in giving this training (as I have done at several TWC's)

owned

I need to read the rules on sig and avatar sizes.
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 3:37pm

I'm just sayin...

Seriously though, thanks for the clarification on the use of .50s in Vietnam.  Yes, I knew they were point defense and yes I did know that they required the tripod mount and other preperations making them a static rather than truely portable weapon as well as it was certainly NOT the premier weapon used by the teams.  Just saying that MGs have been used in what some would consider a "Sniper type" role...i.e. OSOK.  I did not know, however, exactly how the trigger worked and that it was selectable that way...good to know. 

I think you and I are actually speaking along the same lines Oldsoldier...just, as I said before...using different terms.  Just as important is the fact that I'm not trying to argue or disprove anything, rather mearly clarifying my point.  You'll note when I use the term Sniper role that "sniper" is usually in quotes.  Reason being is that most people have this idea of what a sniper is supposed to be and that conception isn't the way the "role" would be played in a paintball scenario game.  You said  yourself that a recon team is better suited than a "sniper" team to the game of paintball and I agree.  Hence why I said that in a scenario environment...

Quote They do recon and scout work...They can be used to hold up an advance (such as when a take and hold objective is in need of reinforcement) or to get in close so they can take out a couple key defensive players during a mission and help soften things up for the sweeper team. 

While the second example doesn't explicity state it, it was implied that they would be working as part of a group...not the "lone wolf" mentality that most have as to what a Sniper should be.

Back to what you were talking about earlier though with having the liquid CO2 expand in the bore, are there any articles or sites that may have more information on this and the modification to make it work?  Very curious about this now. 

New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
WDR-Tyger View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 December 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 106
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WDR-Tyger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 3:49pm

you know...

If you want to call yourself a sniper, go ahead.

Heck, call yourself "Aunt Bertha" when you play.  I think I've stoped caring.

Just be aware that you're not filling the role, you're just using the name.  And in that case, you can call yourself a paintball "Cheeseburger" for all that matters.

-Tyger

Yeah, "that" Tyger.
Back to Top
Maddawg101 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 06 January 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Maddawg101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 4:27pm
I think I've gotten all the info I can get from this one... Thanks guys, I would like to here more from oldsoldier and Robotech.
"Talent is not to be wasted, it's the ones who hate upon which you should lay waste"
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 5:18pm
Originally posted by WDR-Tyger WDR-Tyger wrote:

you know...

If you want to call yourself a sniper, go ahead.

Heck, call yourself "Aunt Bertha" when you play.  I think I've stoped caring.

Just be aware that you're not filling the role, you're just using the name.  And in that case, you can call yourself a paintball "Cheeseburger" for all that matters.

-Tyger

Which is why I just don't call myself anything other than a player. 

New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
poamike View Drop Down
Member
Member

Guested

Joined: 25 October 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 207
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poamike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 6:38pm
just say your a noob and get over it
I need to read the rules on sig and avatar sizes.
Back to Top
evil_fingers View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Inappropriate sig

Joined: 27 March 2004
Location: Frisco Nor Cal
Status: Offline
Points: 7224
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote evil_fingers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 January 2005 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by Robotech Robotech wrote:

Originally posted by WDR-Tyger WDR-Tyger wrote:

you know...

If you want to call yourself a sniper, go ahead.

Heck, call yourself "Aunt Bertha" when you play.  I think I've stoped caring.

Just be aware that you're not filling the role, you're just using the name.  And in that case, you can call yourself a paintball "Cheeseburger" for all that matters.

-Tyger

Which is why I just don't call myself anything other than a player. 

Same here!

Do not steal....the government hates competition!
Back to Top
TigerForce View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 January 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TigerForce Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 January 2005 at 11:44pm

What most people have in mind as a 'sniper' is impossible in paintball.  Stop watching movies. The guy in the ghillie suit shooting an assigned target or taking down the chain of command one shot at a time is not a sniper anyways, that is an assassin and lone gunmen rarely live to tell their stories.  Real snipers rarely shoot anyone, they have radios and optics and relay info back to peeps in charge.  The information they gather is preperation for major assaults on opposition targets or observation for artillary.  At best, in speedball, the sniper is a coach or other observer in your corner that notices the opponents weaknesses and coaches you on how to exploit it.  Otherwise, I see no other parallels in paintball for a sniper [unless you count sending my 8 yr old son off in the woods in a ghillie suit and telling him to hide for a few hours]. 

Here's an idea if you still wish to run around the woods in a ghillie suit and gun.  Try team ambushes.  First, you are hiding in the woods with a gun "hunting" people.  Second, you can still wear your ghillie suit.  Third, team play is 1,000,000x more fun than being by yourself.  Fourth,  you are able to get medical help immediately if necessary.  Fifth, team ambushes are more effective than "sniping."  Sixth, advances you make on the field are not in vane if you get hit.  Seventh, a well planned and executed ambush is a thing of pure beauty you will never forget.
As for equipment:
a marker that can throw lots of paint in a hurry and pretty accurately.  You really arent aiming here just launching a massive amount of paint in a general direction.

Recap:
Sniping=bad idea
Ambushes=more fun feeding ticks and mosquitos than you ever thought possible-and you still can wear the ghillie suit!!!



Edited by TigerForce
Kill me once - shame on you
Kill me twice - Aint gonna happen
Back to Top
Shadowminion View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Language, 3/20

Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1624
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2005 at 10:11am
there are really two deeply entrenched ideas about "Sniping" (Obviously !!) my advice , would be get a good barrel for your gun , and practice , practice , practice
SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
Widowmaker , under construction
Back to Top
Bullet View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
language got him guested.

Joined: 18 September 2004
Location: Andorra
Status: Offline
Points: 182
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bullet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 January 2005 at 11:05am
so u wanna be a "SNIPER" you wanna be one of those kids that sits in the corner and camps out and lets his team mates do the work
Mountain Dew + Duct Tape =
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.578 seconds.