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Accuracey difference?

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Shadowminion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 12:31am

In a nutshell Robo, that summarizes it, but as Stunna said, at Very high rates of fire, the difference becomes less and less aparant .

We are splitting hairs here, but as a general rule , (with comparably priced markers ) the CBM will hold a Slight advantage over OBM markers in accuracy .

My money is on skill first , the other differences are indeed slight , but do exist .

SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
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Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 1:00am
robo:

lets say bot OBM and CBM will only shoot 1 ball each

with the OBM... the ball is in the breach and is moved forward by bolt attached to the hammer... when the air propels the paint, the paint is still in motion due to the forward movement of the bolt and hammer

with the CBM.. the bolt is already close with the ball at rest... the only moving object is the hammer, when it strikes the valve and send the air to the paint... the paint is still in restin motion

in *theory*... projectile at rest supposely can yield less disturbance therefor can *marginally* increase concistancy (accuracy)... of course... this is only in theory if you are using solid projectile...
liquid filled projectile (such as paint) is very random when it comes to dynamics and is almost impossible to take into consideration all the variables



shadowminion:

though i do agree to the *theory*... in real world application... it has no difference... a paintball in motion (OBM) will yield just as many variables as a paintball at rest (CBM) because of the unpredictable dynamics of fluid filled projectile.

(notice im talking about fluid filled paintball only... solid state projectile is totally different)


-------------------------------------

here's a new point that i want to bring up (just crossed my mind) that refutes the turbulent effect on paint from an OBM

when using a barrel that has a fairly good bore match to the paint... the paint will be contacting the walls of the barrel

thus... regardless if the marker is OB or CB... the paint is stabalized once it reaches the barrel, before it is being propelled

in this case... turbulence is eliminated as a variable since the paint can not move around in the barrel anymore due to its contact to the walls of the barrel


----------------------------

in conclusion:
the only time that a CBM can actually/physically (beyond theory) be more accurate (even though marginally) than a n OBM will be under these conditions:

if both markers are:

* shooting a 1-5 bps (giving CMB enough time to put the paint at rest)
* paint is way smaller than barrel, paint can roll out of the barrel (so paint can have turbulence for an OBM)
* markers are clamped down (to avoid player's motion which might cause turbulence in both markers



but of course... in day to day play... shooting will be well above 10 bps... paint will never roll out of a barrel (hopefuly) and a marker will always be in motion due to the player

so... i restate... on the field... CMB are not inherently more accurate than OBM... such idea only exist in theory and/or under extreme testing conditions when settings favor the CBM system

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 1:31pm

Well, if it is marginally with a solid round and we are talking about a liquid filled round I would say the difference is so minimal to be non-existant.  This would thus lend credance to the theory that a CBM is no more or less accurate by its bolt design than a OBM.  On top of this, any marginal difference between the two would be completely negated by the fact that we are shooting 3 gram spherical projectiles that are easily succeptable to the forces of Vortex Shedding which causes random flight paths anyway. If the affects of Vortex Shedding are greater than the marginal difference that may exist with CBM and OBM than really is there any measureable performance difference at all even when bench tested under the conditions you state?  Doesn't sound like it. I mean, if you shot a SOLID paintball that was greater than 3 grams then perhaps the difference would be apparent, but not with traditional paintball rounds.

To take something that, in theory under the best conditions would post possibly marginal better results and turn that into a blanket statement of one is more accurate than the other is a pretty long stretch.



Edited by Robotech
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 1:38pm

Okay, best we can come up with then,,, is to agree to disagree .

Disallowing any and all variables that may be introduced by anything other than the marker , I still hold CBM are slightly more prone to accuracy .

 By the way , I shoot exclusively OBM (cept for the pump ) , and have found enough modifications , techniques , and Tricks to make it more than an equal for most high end CBM's for accuracy , both at High ROF , and as a single shooter 1-2 BPS .

Beginning work today on my new project , "Widowmaker" , Pure mechanical 98C , patterned after my Desert camo 98 , with a few more improvements .

SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by Shadowminion Shadowminion wrote:

I shoot exclusively OBM (cept for the pump ) , and have found enough modifications , techniques , and Tricks to make it more than an equal for most high end CBM's for accuracy , both at High ROF , and as a single shooter 1-2 BPS .

Wouldn't this also prove that CBMs are not more accurate than OBM purely because of bolt design?  I mean, maybe with real firearms but that isn't the issue here.

Not being argumentitve nor choosing sides...just seeking the logical truth behind the matter. Thus I question EVERYTHING. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 2:02pm

Tis good to question all that you encounter , but ask yourself this, why is it, then , that pumps are considered more inherently accurate ?

The reason I chose to shoot a blowback marker , Tippmann specifically , was their reputation for simplicity , and reliability . Money was a great factor too, I set up two complete sets of gear (My wife chose the Spyder imagine , solely on the flashy looks Vs. Tippman ).

The only thing that it really proves,is that MY OBM is more accurate , but I questioned a lot of things , like paint to bore match , ballistics and aerodynamics , Mechanical and design considerations , propellant characteristics , my skills , and the physical limits of the equipment and the laws of physics as they apply to Paintball .

I have put many hours into my last set-up , tuning , modifying , testing , and playing , both with the Tippy, and the Wifes Kingman . I enjoy tinkering with things, and have done so ,for over 30 years professionally (electrical , mechanical Industrial production mechanic , currently working in the avionics industry again ) . So,, I am pretty good at what I do , I like taking the possible , and making it practical .

I  Found that the pump IS more accurate , anyway , I make a Much higher percentage of shots with it , than with the Semi . Maybe cuz I take that split second more time aiming, LOL ! the guys on the field I play at (most recently last nite , pump again) seem to think so too, even the "Team members" I play against .

SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 2:11pm
robo: i agree



shadowminion:
we can agree/diagree all we want... but matter of fact is ... theres only one truth to all of this:
CBM are not inherently more accurate than OBM, and that accuracy is dictated by quality of paint, air source concistancy and many other variables that will vary between each and every individual markers (markers "accuracy" can even vary within the same model)

like i said... CBM do have an accuracy difference if testing variables are in its favor

Quote
* shooting a 1-5 bps (giving CMB enough time to put the paint at rest)
* paint is way smaller than barrel, paint can roll out of the barrel (so paint can have turbulence for an OBM)
* markers are clamped down (to avoid player's motion which might cause turbulence in both markers



in addition... if you reread my statement above on how a good paint to barrel bore matches is important... you can see that *all* pre-flight turbulence of the paint in the barrel (in both OBM/CBM) is elimninated since the paint have no room for lateral, vertical, or horizontal movement unless applied by either the bolt or the air used to propel it.



with "theory"... anything can be proven... untill test results come in.

but in the world of paintball and with all the high quality OBM out there... on the field... their will be no difference what so ever
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 2:15pm
adding to your pump statement

i'll have to sit back and listen since my experience (and work) with pump is extremely limited

i havent spend enough time with enough different models to jump to my own conclusion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 2:21pm

I do not agree with you Stunna, but I will defend your right to state your beliefs  

Later all , Rarin' to start the new project !!

SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
Widowmaker , under construction
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EDTHEWARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 5:18pm
folks, this has been hashed over so many times...PLEASE shaddap. Do you think this is the first time anyone tried to argue about this?!? there is no difference.

read the articles...warpig even tested this...


http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic /closedopen.shtml

http://www.directpaintball.com/article_mike_myths.html

http://forum.pbfreak.net/archive/index.php/t-789.html



Edited by EDTHEWARD
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EAT PAINT,YOU FRIGGIN'..um.. NON-TIPPMANN..er..SHOOTER PERSON!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote -cockerkilla99- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 December 2004 at 7:06pm
ok no difference
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 December 2004 at 12:19am
I think you have your answer to the pump issue.  I believe "the accuracy of a pump" is a mental accuracy issue than a physical one.  When you come out with a pump to shoot you know you only have ONE chance.  Two tops. On top of that the most you have before a reload (if you play stock class) is 10-20 shots.  The importance of getting that first shot in is critical. Secondly, usually pumps are much lighter than your semi's.  It is easier to steady a lighter weight marker. But I think to truely test the "Pump is more accurate because of CB" would be to find an open bolt pump and try the two. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mod98commando Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by EDTHEWARD EDTHEWARD wrote:

folks, this has been hashed over so many times...PLEASE shaddap. Do you think this is the first time anyone tried to argue about this?!? there is no difference.


Normally I'd agree that old (and formerly hot) topics should be allowed to die but this one was different than the others because the arguments were actually backed by intelligent thoughts. It was kept civil for the most part and everybody made their points and backed them very well. For that reason, I think you all contributed something very valuable to this forum and I hope the newbies see this so that they mimic your behavior. I actually enjoyed reading this whole thread, lots of interesting points were made and it got me thinking. One thing I'm curious about though, what is Vortex Shedding?
oreomann33: Everybody invades Poland
Rofl_Mao: And everyone eats turkey
Me: But only if they're hungary
Mack: Yeah but hungary people go russian through their food and end up with greece on everyth
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rossy11223 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:25pm
What the.........most of the people in this thread don't even get on here anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdacda13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:33pm
Ok, I read though it, very intelligent discision.

I wish that was still around.



Edited by cdacda13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rossy11223 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:34pm

Who goes around reading year old threads anyways? Did you search for this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G36 Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:37pm
lol.  somebody that just wants to i guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdacda13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:40pm
Guys, read his post. You'll learn something I bet. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rossy11223 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:41pm
I see now. He wanted to make a point to the rest of the forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote G36 Monkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:46pm
i try to make my posts as educated as possible when influenecing some1 lol
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