Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Accuracey difference?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Shadowminion View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Language, 3/20

Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1624
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 December 2004 at 8:51am
Yes they are, but only slightly , due to the bolt going forward (in an open bolt marker) when the trigger is pulled . If your technique isnt Damned good , that will cause the marker to move slightly , hence more prone to innacuracy due solely to the type of action used . the closed bolt marker, shoots, then cycles the bolt .
SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
Widowmaker , under construction
Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2004 at 1:54am
^^^ dont ever correct me with your ignorance

prove me that "close bolt" makes it more accurate?

would you call a stock 2k1, close bolt autococker more accurate than the latest 2k5 timmies/matrix/viking and all the lastest open bolt markers??

No!

because accuracy depends on many variables and bolt position isnt one of them

accuracy is mainly due to quality pain, good paint/barrel bore match, and consistency of air source
Back to Top
-cockerkilla99- View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Banned 3 strikes(3/18)

Joined: 28 November 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 602
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote -cockerkilla99- Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 December 2004 at 8:05am
read the first few posts on why it is said they are more accurate.
Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 12:53am
the first post is flawed...

evidence... the comparison i made above

the myth that close bolt is more accurate needs to be put to an end... same thing with "longer barrels are more accurate" myth, which people on this forrum finally understand isnt true



when an OpenBolt Marker (OBM) shoots, the bolt moves forward pushing the ball from the breach into the barrel, once the bolt hits its apex, the hammer strikes the valve propelling the marker
to recap:

1. bolt open
2. ball in breech
3. trigger pull
4. bolt moves forward
5. ball in barrel
6. hammer strikes valve, air propels paint from bolt


now lets look at the close bolt maker (CBM)...
at rest, the paint is already in the barrel and when the trigger is pulled, the hammer strikes the valve, and the magic happens
at the end of the cycle, the bolt opens letting a ball drop in the breech, and the bolt closes moving the paint into the barrel
lets recap

1. ball in barrel
2. trigger pull
3. hammer striked, air propels the paint
4. bolt opens
5. ball in breech
6. bolt moves forward (ball in barrel again)


as you can see, the sequence is very similar in both OBM and CBM, the 2 variations are in the trigger pull and the initial order (which can be neglected when the cycle is continuously repeated during a multiple paintballs firing sequence)


the different order of the trigger pull does little to affect the accuracy (let along improve it)

during slow firing, the CBM will have the ball at rest longer in the barrel than the OBM

but when firing an ebladed cocker or xcal for example @ double digit bps, the time the ball spend idle is no different than in a OBM

when looking at the OBM and CBM shooting fast (doube digit bps), the sequence will be no different:

1. bolt moves forward
2. hammer strikes valve
3. bolt moves backward


as you can see... saying that a CBM is more accurate becuz of only 1 variable (close bolt position being the case) is total... bs (due to lack of words)... at high rate, the sequence is exactly the same for both types of markers
Back to Top
Shadowminion View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Language, 3/20

Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1624
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 5:02am

Beg to differ Stunna , the mass and inertia of the bolt on a closed bolt marker , at firing will be decidedly less Prone to small movement than would a "Blowback" type action where you have a metal slug accelerating and striking the valve when you fire .

Granted , when in high ROF there will be negligable differences , but that wasnt the question . Read,, THINK,,,, then post , oh Impertinent One .

SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
Widowmaker , under construction
Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 5:52am
ok... explain to this to me then:

when you are referring to:

"less prone to small movement... where you have a metal slug accelerating and striking the valve when you fire"...

if the above is only a problem in OBM... how do you explain the mechanics behind a CBM striking its valve?

both markers have a "metal slug accelerating", end of story.
the biggest variatios between hammer size will be between different marker models, and not between OBM and CBM
(side note: the cyborg has one of the smallest/lightest hammer i've seen out there... and yet it is a OBM)

in addition, you seem to exclude hight ROF? how can you possibly exclude one of the biggest factors in modern marker abilities? what good is a slow marker these days? if speed wasnt the "quesion" as you stated, then we wouldnt see the popularity of semi over pump would we?
to exclude high ROF to justify your claim is unreasonable cuz you are ignoring a major contributor of what makes up a accurate marker.
a marker's accuracy at high speed is the a very important aspect today, and such performance will have no difference between a CBM or OBM


Back to Top
ekeboo View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
strike 1 5/1 Filter dodge

Joined: 23 May 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ekeboo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 9:45am
the autococker may seem to be open for one thing. there is very little blow back. this means less kick which means you get to hold the gun steadier which is more accurate.


Back to Top
Rio258K View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 April 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 632
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rio258K Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 10:27am
It all depends. Barrel, amount of blowback, timing, paint. No gun can just plain be THE MOST ACCURATE. under the right conditions, it may be more accurate than oters, but it may not be under different conditions.

That is IMHO.

Resident SP fan rockin the Shocker.
Back to Top
Slimz.357 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 October 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 399
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slimz.357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 12:27pm

Originally posted by Sir Stunna Lot Sir Stunna Lot wrote:

^^^ dont ever correct me with your ignorance

because accuracy depends on many variables and bolt position isnt one of them

No offense man, but you don't know what your talking about. The reason a closed bolt marker is inherently more accurate than an open bolt has almost nothing to do with ball movement or strike force.

Closed bolt markers and firearms are accurately superior through operation because they can obtain a better seal when launching the projectile.
When an open bolt marker/firearm fires, extra gas is used to propel the bolt assembly back into its primed stage. This does two things to the projectile -
1. Unevenly placed force is applied to the back of the projectile, giving it a less stable trajectory as it leaves the barrel. This makes it less accurate than it could be due to it's lopsided takeoff.
2. When the bolt begins to return to it's prime postition, gas vents to the inner parts of the gun. This creates inconsistency becuase of the complexity of the inner frame and the added variables it presents.

Bottom line: Closed bolt markers are more accurate because it removes a considerable number of variables from the equation. The difference between a bolt action rifle and one of a semi-auto design, for instance, will be quite noticable. In paintball, this won't make a huge difference, but it will help.

"If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot."
REQUIRED READING
Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 2:49pm
rico: agreed



slim:

--------------------------------------------------

first all, comparing a paintball marker mechanic's to a firearm is completely useless, we all know that by now, thats a very weak argument... the physics applied to the projectile alone is enough to exclude any possible similarities

--------------------------------------------------

your first flawed argument claiming that:

"they can obtain a better seal..." this is called "lack of blowback"

cause of blowback:
bolt is "significantly" smaller than barrel, which leaks the propelling gas back into the breach

example:
any marker can be subject to blowback, my friend's cocker has been re-anoed twice, causing pretty bad blowback on his old bolt since the 2 ano stripping had thinned the breach and barrel

solution:
most high quality OBM these days (along with CBM) have resolve such problem by improving their bolt to breach size, higher tolerance, less gap... the another solution is the introduction of orings around the bolt to virtually eliminate blowback

As you can see, OBM and CBM are both subject to blow back and both have solutions for them
Obviously your theory of "CBM can obtain a better seal" is flawed since CBM marker has NO relevance or advantage in this area over the OBM, instead the "quality of the seal" is ALL due to the precision fit between the bolt and breach (and sometime bolt to barrel also for that perfect shot)

--------------------------------------------------

your second claim is rather useless to your argument

both OBM and CBM use complex (relatively complex) methods to redirect air and venting... i really dont see how this benefits your theory... if anything this refutes your claim since you are suggesting that both type of markers have "added variables" present, suggesting that none is superior or more accurate

but let me go into some detail on how it actually works:
cockers uses its 3/4/5-ways (what ever u want to call it) to redirect its air from opening the bolt, cocking the hammer, and closing the bolt
OBM that are true electro pneumatics uses a solenoid instead
the Excal is an CBM and uses solenoid
ebladed cockers uses a 3-way solenoid also

the method of redirecting air really has no difference since parts are interchangeable between both types

Air flow is a valid variable, but is only affected by the manufacturer and the design of individual models...
claiming that CBM is more accurate due to better air passages/directing is innaccurate... air flow varies between different models, NOT between OBM or CBM

--------------------------------------------------

about your last comoment:

variables arent removed, since the mechanics is behind there, therefor variable only changes... if you take away any variables from the CBM, the marker just wont shoot
variables will be dependent from models to models, and not due to the overgeneralizing hype that CBM is more accurate

"The difference between a bolt action rifle and one of a semi-auto design, for instance, will be quite noticable (very true). In paintball, this won't make [ANY] difference, [and] will [NOT] help."

come one... leave the comparison to a firearm to rest, i dont even want to get started on how both are SO different... its like comparing a motocycle to a bycle, completely ridiculous argument
Back to Top
STXPB View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2004
Location: Albania
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote STXPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 3:43pm
damn stunna you shut down everyone who trys to disprove you
South Texas Paintball
__________________
A-5
Flatline
E-Grip
Double Trigger
Collapsable Stock
Coiled Hose Remote
Back to Top
Shadowminion View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
Strike 1 - Language, 3/20

Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1624
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 December 2004 at 7:18pm

He seems to completely ignore the points made ,disproving his theorys , just cuz he says so, dont make it so,,

For example , His lengthy, and obviously incorrect dissertation on blowback markers , he seems to think that blowback is caused at the front of the bolt, well, Got news for him , the reason blowback markers operate ,is they have blowback ports at the valve that direct blowback gasses to propell the rear bolt back to its cocked position .

there is a problem , called blowback , that is caused by a damaged front bolt Oring, but what the hell bearing does that have with what Glassjaws question is ?!?

Stupid Rises to the level of platinum in this case , obviously he is right , no matter what , LOL, maybe if we give him a cookie, and hold our tongues, he will go away,,

 

Edit : as far as RoF , I hold that it is useful if you have the Skill to use it . I play speedball with a pump , against some very skilled players , and some other extremely skilled pumpers , the pumps, as a general rule , are ,if not the last ones standing , are close to the last ones on the field , Why ?? accuracy , tactics , skill , the basics of any sucessful game ,,, Higer ROF will enhance a player with the above skills , and to a degree , Mask an inexperienced players lack of them,, to say that ROF is the end all - cure all is just ludicrous , and a statement typical of one lacking in at least one of the skills mentioned , not to mention common sense .

 Again Read,,, THINK,,,, Post.



Edited by Shadowminion
SL68-II , micro honed and polished .688" bore . Tuff Enuf .
Widowmaker , under construction
Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 5:00am
Shadowminion:

to start off...
your last part is very true... skill rules above all...
but you are taking my post out of lines
at no point did i say "ROF is to end all cure"...
this is what i said: [quality markers will shoot accureatly/consistenly at high ROF]
at no point did i mention players skills and experience... thats a totally different variable that is useless when it comes to "marker accuracy"



with the above said...

i have to strongly emphasize how flawed the first part of the argument is:

first off...

*** blowback !does NOT equal! OpenBolt Markers ***

im glad i got that off my chest

i have no doubt that blowback markers are sligthly less accurate (tippy/spyders/clones).
the reason they are called blow back is because they use the same gas that is used to propelled the ball to move the bolt, in this case blowing backward... hence the name. blowback markers are also Open Bolt Markers

that is why you have some markers called "blow forward" (mags and single tube markers for example)
it is because the air that is used to propell the paint is also use to move the bolt forward... hence the name again


ok... with that out of the way... electro pneumatic markers (most high end OBM, bushy/impulse/timmy/borg/viking/...) do not use the air propelling the paint for anything else but to propel the paint.
their recocking mechanism relies on a pneumatic valve (solenoid, similar in function to the 3-way of a cocker) to move the internals around using seperate air that is regulated by the LPR, totally independent of the propelling gas regulated by the HPR


one last thing, there are 2 definitions of "blowback":

1st* markers that use propelling air to move the bolt

and

2nd* air that is leaked around the bolt when the ball is fired

i just explained the first blowback definition... the 2nd
definition is a few post above where i was talking about "breach seal"


ok... as i explained on my previous threads... both markers are subjected to the 2nd blowback definition, the variation is between individual model design and not the inherent difference between OBM and CBM

as for your comment on the 1st definition of blowback, high end OBM markers do not use this method and therefor not subjected to problems associated with it... so we can safely toss out the 1st definition out of this debate



last note:...

as for my platinum status... well... ive been around for a few years (even before the date posted under my name since the forum has gone through some major changes previously and has now been stable for the past 2 years +)

also... feel free to challenge any of my posts... status doesnt equate correctness... cuz i do make mistakes (but not in this case though )

Edited by Sir Stunna Lot
Back to Top
STXPB View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 December 2004
Location: Albania
Status: Offline
Points: 36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote STXPB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 7:28am
he is right tho if the little movement of the bolt realy bothers you, then you should just quit and play like air soft or something  plus that means  your probaly weak and cant hold the gun still
South Texas Paintball
__________________
A-5
Flatline
E-Grip
Double Trigger
Collapsable Stock
Coiled Hose Remote
Back to Top
Slimz.357 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 October 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 399
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slimz.357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 8:14am

Originally posted by Sir Stunna Lot Sir Stunna Lot wrote:


first all, comparing a paintball marker mechanic's to a firearm is completely useless, we all know that by now, thats a very weak argument... the physics applied to the projectile alone is enough to exclude any possible similarities

Good post, but you're missing the point. When it comes to accuracy you obviously can't compare a paintball marker to a real firearm, but the physics still apply. Bolt seal has nothing to do with what kind of projectile you're launching. It's about the size, shape, and consistency of the forces that are being applied to that object.

Keep in mind that the level difference that bolt seal will make in paintball is, for the most part, negligible. Things like the quality of the marker, the design and construction, and the barrel will more than make up the difference.

That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

The second part of my post was rather abreviated, (sorry, I was late for work), but what I was trying to point out is that when the bolt begins to return to the primed position in a OBM, the gases that are applying pressure to the ball are sudenly dispersed into the marker's internals, the feedneck, etc... Depending on how long your barrel is, this can cause a sort of pressure backlash effect on the ball, creating inconsistency. The bolt's seal doesn't matter at this point because the bolt is already open past the point of sealing.

Again, it's important to note that this will not make the biggest difference in the world. If you were to build two autocockers (one open bolt and one closed), out of the same materials, assembled the same way with the same paint and the same barrel, the CMB would only be slightly more accurate than the OBM. But especially with speedball players, the little bit suposedly makes a difference.

*Inhales*  So, all things considered, CMB's are better than OBM's more in terms of theory than in actual application because, as you said, paintball has simply too many variables and is too inconsistent for it to make much of a difference.

Ps. Sorry for the 12 page post.

"If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot."
REQUIRED READING
Back to Top
98c Dude13 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 18 June 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2082
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 98c Dude13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 12:47pm
...........................
TIPPMANN 98 CUSTOM
14" Progressive barrel   
32* Black gel grips
BT-16 Double trigger
Pen Spring Mod
X-core Expansion Chamber
Vertical Adapter
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Slimz.357 Slimz.357 wrote:

That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

Okay, maybe I have this all wrong but I'm looking over the process here and have some questions/thought/random mussings.

First off, if a marker is capable of firing 15 BPS but is only being fired at 4 BPS, does is cycle slower or is the time it takes for the marker to complete it's cycle the same?  If so then wouldn't the amount of motion after the shot be the same regardless if it shot 1 BPS or 15 BPS?  And are we not talking about the motion of the bolt after the shot affecting the shot itself?

So I did some math...bad math but math all the same.  In order to acheive 15 BPS...heck, make it easy on my math retarded brain...say 10 BPS, you have to fire every 10th of a second.  0.1 second per shot.  That means from the ball being fired to the bolt beind fully rearward in order to load the next ball, is .05 second or 5/100ths of a second. A ball traveling at 280 FPS will go 28 feet in .1 second and 14 feet in .05 second.  At .01 second it will have traveled just shy of 3 feet.  This means that with a 1 foot barrel (12 inches) the ball will be out of the barrel in about .0036 second (or about 3.6 THOUSANDTHS of a second).  Now, this does not account for acceleration or deceleration because, of course, the ball doesn't start instantly at 280 FPS to begin it's travel down the barrel nor does it remain at a constant velocity in the barrel once it finishes accelerating because the friction of the remaining barrel length will slow it down.  (When I swtiched from a 14" barrel to a 20" barrel velocity went from about 280 to 260.) 

Since the argument is that the movment of the bolt will generate a movement of the marker (kick) and thus cause the shooter to move the barrel from it's initial aiming point THUS (a lot of thuses) causing the ball to deviate from it's aimed possition since it has not left the barrel the question becomes just how much does the barrel move in 3.6 thousandths of a second and is this enough to cause a major deviation in flight path?   

In single shots, and considering the ranges we are dealing with, this minor deviation while the shot is in the barrel is not going to affect the shots placement down range.  In addition, due to the effect of Vortex Shedding a round paintball's flightpath will be far more affected by Vortex Shedding than it will be by this minor kick during firing. 

Now, in multiple shots the amount of recoil a marker has will affect how well the shooter can put their marker back on target after each shot.  The less the recoil the quicker the shooter can fire without missing their target.  However, this has more to do with gun design in relation to striker motion than bolt motion.  Here, typical blowback markers would show a decrease in accuracy in high ROF situations because of the force required to move not only a heavy striker but also overcome the force of the Velocity Spring. 

However close or far I am away from the truth I cannot say...it is mearly an opinion based on observations and something, while discussed, hadn't really been quantified by anyone. 

Now as far as the bolt being closed when fired, in single shot situations again I do not see the difference between the two.  If the bolt is closed and at rest when the ball is fired, is not the ball then moving once the air hits it?  What change is there if the ball is moving before the air hits it?  What makes the ball in motion prior to it's main acceleration less consistant...I cannot say accurate since this motion has to do with the projectile's velocity consistancy as it relates to accuracy rather than the physical "aiming" of the projectile by the barrel and shooter. 

In a rapid fire situation, there is no difference between a closed bolt and an open bolt (this does not, in any way, take into account other workings within the marker that may contribute to the marker's accuracy such as how the air is delivered or motion of the striker...only the bolt process itself).  Both bolts are moving the ball forward before the ball is fired.  Both bolts are in forward motion just thousandth's of a second before the ball is fired.  Regardless of whether or not the closed bolt system stops the bolt just prior to firing the fact is that in order to fire at the same rates the markers must cycle their mechanisms at a certain minimum cycle rate in order to maintain that ROF. Since the time between firing is so short, the ball does not have enough time to come to a complete rest before being fired from the marker.

Again, just my thoughts and I may be totally off.  But it's just the way I see it.



Edited by Robotech
New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Slimz.357 Slimz.357 wrote:

That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.

I presume you can point to some scientific evidence to support this claim, rather than mere conjecture?

 

Back to Top
Sir Stunna Lot View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 21 June 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1665
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Stunna Lot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 8:43pm
Quote That said, the reason CBM's are usually more accurate is because the bolt doesn't move until the ball has already left the barrel, hence bolt movement and the variables it presents do not effect the ball. I don't know if this holds up at higher bps, but for markers that run in the single digits, this equates to better performance.


you are correct that in a CBM, the bolt isnt moving when the paint is being propelled only at really low ROF (1-5 bps)...
but in the actual real world of paintball where it is relatively easy to reach 12-13 bps, the difference is negligible, if its even there at all.
when a CBM cycle at such high rate, the pause between bolt resting and hammer striking is barely even present anymore, and as you reach even higher, the bolt feeding the paint and the hammer striking the valve is almost instantaneous.
though i agree at very low ROF, the CBM might have the slight upper hand due to the resting bolt, but at very high ROF, the CBM will end up cycling just like an OBM



Quote The second part of my post was rather abreviated, (sorry, I was late for work), but what I was trying to point out is that when the bolt begins to return to the primed position in a OBM, the gases that are applying pressure to the ball are sudenly dispersed into the marker's internals, the feedneck, etc... Depending on how long your barrel is, this can cause a sort of pressure backlash effect on the ball, creating inconsistency. The bolt's seal doesn't matter at this point because the bolt is already open past the point of sealing.


i think you will need to reword the above, it is making little sense to me
the only thing that i can make of it is how you mentioned that air pressure will vary in an OBM becuz the internal needs air to move the bolt/hammer around...
dont forget though... the same happens in a CBM, with a different method, but its still there



as for your last part... in theory, the CBM could be a bit more accurate at very low ROF due to its resting bolt position... but if the theory is applied to high ROF (something that everyone is looking for today)... the theory holds less ground as ROF increase
Back to Top
Robotech View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 09 September 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 425
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robotech Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 December 2004 at 11:24pm

Are you saying that the movment of the bolt forward is moving the marker and thus throwing off the aim and affecting accuracy?  That's the only way I see a OBM being less accurate than a CBM.

New to the sport?

Proud owner of a WS-66 A-5 ACP
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.188 seconds.