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Topic ClosedTo be a sniper or not to be a sniper

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Poll Question: Is there such thing as a PB Sniper
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2004 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Stza Crack Stza Crack wrote:

Originally posted by limster limster wrote:

oh,,, im so sorry,,,
i wouldnt wana disturb all u superior paintballers whos opinions are just
automatically right no matter what the fķck u say lol

 

im with you limester i think its how you play pb.  everyone is so hostile on these forums...if u have under 50 posts you're considered a loser who doesnt know **edited** and you're opinion doesnt matter

the sad part is, the type of people who bring up stupid and pointless topics like this are the ones with 50 or less posts. It's understandable that everyone is hostile when you see the same stupid topics about snipers and paintball tanks 2 or 3 times a day, sometimes by the same person. If people like you would stop posting senseless crap, we wouldn't have this problem.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2004 at 5:44pm
limster u are stupid just dont bring this up its always black and white ok maybe snipers dont exist in paintball but shooting people from a ways away with good accuracy and not being seen does exist and idc what all of u others say it exists maybe not in your games but in other paintball matches it does exist
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2004 at 6:23pm

Ohhh boy. here we go again.  Okay all of you people who say that sniping doesn't exist, because you are using military definition. If it is not possible to be a paintball sniper, then why do the military use paintball guns when they do scenarios? The snipers use them too. hmmmmm, what does this mean? Think about it! Snipers do exist in paintball. But in truth we should not even be bringing the military definition into this. The military uses real guns, not paintball guns, so it is only natural that paintball snipers cannot shoot farther than regular players. But then again, where to paintball scenarios come from, the military! We play soldier, and have simulated battles, so if there are snipers in the military there are snipers in paintball!

Thats it, no more posting thisthread

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 December 2004 at 9:27pm
So I read all the posts and what I can see is that a sniper has to have a gun that while shoot 1000 miles to be classified as a sniper, no sorry pretty sure it's the tactics they use... ex. If everyone was carrying long range weapons and there was one person with a shortrange weapon hidding in the woods and shot the others one by one at shorter ranges would this not be called sniping???

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 12:36am

i just have to do this


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 4:12am

KickAce, that is the funniest damned thing I've seen all month.  Dude, I'm yoinking that for my own record.  That's freakin' hillarious. 

Ahh yes, the "Sniper" thread.  And as usual, Web Dog is kicked into it as "proof".  But I find that most people use the shows in much the same way as a drunkard uses a streetlight, "support" rather than "illumination".

Yes, I made the shows.  Yes, I still believe that "snipers" do not exist in paintball.  I've met military snipers who shake thier heads when they see kids talk about being "snipers".  I do, however, believe there are sneaky SOB's out there who know how to use camo.  I know there are people that take pages from the "Sniper Field Manual" and can crawl into your shorts if you're lazy.  I know there are people who can make accurate longball shots that everyone else would look at and say "REF!  Chrony that guy!"

The difference is the role, not just the definition.  Paintball players NORMALLY do not do recon.  The do not attack supplies of the other team.  Heck, if I was REALLY playing a sniper position on a team, I'd camp at the field entrance and take people out as they were pulling their barrel socks off.  If they made me stop shutting down the entry point I'd take me efforts to putting paintballs onto people's gear they leave laying around, like bags of paint that I can ruin.

But before all that I'd do research at least a day before hand, possibly get to the field on Friday night for a Sunday game to set up.  My recon of the field of play would include sat. / overhead photography, and I'd find those angles to YOUR base that you thought were impossible.  You'd NEVER find me, but I'd make it a living hell for your team to get onto the field. 

When you play, you might be "sniping" in the dictionary sense, but you do not do the job of a sniper.  It's like calling myself an eskimo if I wear mucklucks.

I say usually, because there are scenario games.  And I know for a fact that scenario games CAN have "Sniper" roles.  And in that sense, yes you can play the role of a sniper.  But you're still not always a "sniper".  Unless you've spent a few years of your life learning the trade, and you can tell me that you've looked into the eyes of another human being before ending their life at 600+ meters, you're not a sniper.

If you want to call it semantics, go ahead.  Be a sharpshooter, be a sneaky SOB, be "that guy in the camo who keeps plinking the other team off"...  just don't call it being a "Sniper".  Too many career military would like to have a few words over that term being used casually, and I'm inclined to agree.

On a related note, don't ask me what I think of D-Day either.

-Tyger



Edited by WDR-Tyger
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 7:25am
^^^ Good to see the tyger back in action. Finally, someone with some authority on the subject. GJ
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 8:34am
OK People, one    more    time.

If your going to identify yourself by a role or skill you have to define the environment, and what seperates you from the rest in that environment.


First some basics need to be established. The game is paintball and for the purposes of this class it is played in the woods where the terrain dictates that youíll be engaging each other most of the time at between 20 and 25 meters. (In other words close range) It is played most often by 2 opposing sides of roughly equal size. For all intent and purposes this game is modeled on military small unit combat.

Now several you are going "whoo hoo, my kind of sniper country"Öwithout knowing what makes a sniper. Many of you have gone to the dictionary and found a reference saying something to the effect that a sniper is someone who fires from concealment and have used this a your basis for your claim to being one in paintball. That's all well and dandy, except you ignore the rest of the definition.

snip∑er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn p r)n. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Source: The American Heritageģ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now youíll note that this expanded definition is still quite general in it scope, after all anyone who squats behind bush to fire is a sniper which is not the case.

So, since the dictionary has not resolved this we must consult the experts for a better definition of what makes a sniper in our chosen environment. It happens that Iíve had the opportunity to do just that from time to time in my 22 years in the Army.

In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
∑ A superior marksman
∑ Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
∑ The ability to approach the target without being detected
∑ Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
∑ The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
∑ The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice.

Letís look at them one at a time.

A superior marksman

Basically someone whoís shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others.

Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment

This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. Itís still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isnít even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball.

The ability to approach the target without being detected

This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. Itís takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done.

I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush.

Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level


The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails.

Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire

No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to engage the target without revealing your position

Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since itís been demonstrated that you canít effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)



Now just because you canít effectively apply all of the above tactics of what makes an effective sniper doesnít mean that the first 3 listed canít be applied to paintball. Do they make you a sniper? No. But they do give you the ability to setup an effective close ambush. Just a word of advice here, bring along several friends and you might even be effective at it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 10:52am

... and the debate continues... some of you people have theories that rivals the theory of evolution! I'm just sitting behind KaptainKickAce watching you people tear each other apart over the word "sniper"!

So far, my first nominee would go to SR_Crewchief for having one of the most elaborate theories!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 11:02am
^^^ I don't know, Tyger's was pretty comlex too. I give crewchief's an 8. Shadow wins the award for the most unorigional, though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 11:14am
Originally posted by Shadow16 Shadow16 wrote:

Ohhh boy. here we go again.  Okay all of you people who say that sniping doesn't exist, because you are using military definition. If it is not possible to be a paintball sniper, then why do the military use paintball guns when they do scenarios? The snipers use them too. hmmmmm, what does this mean? Think about it! Snipers do exist in paintball. But in truth we should not even be bringing the military definition into this. The military uses real guns, not paintball guns, so it is only natural that paintball snipers cannot shoot farther than regular players. But then again, where to paintball scenarios come from, the military! We play soldier, and have simulated battles, so if there are snipers in the military there are snipers in paintball!

Thats it, no more posting thisthread

umm, they would use paintball guns because they don't want to kill each other in training. not because they can be a paintball sniper.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 12:48pm

After this weekend I have to argue two of your reasons why you can't be a Sniper SR.  Firing beyond effective range of your target and doing so without being detected.  I did both this weekend at a scenario game up north.

HOWEVER

It was a very unique position and can ONLY be accomplished during a scenario game (as I have stated time and again).  I was set up as an Anti-Tank rifle.  My marker carried 6 rounds only (so no hopper) but was very long (3' + some).  The rules stated I had to use a different color paint from what the event paint was and that it couldn't be used on infantry...just tanks. During the course of the day I had the opportunity to fire on six different tanks. 

The first time I took a very straight forward approach and didn't try to attack it like a sniper would.  While eliminating the tank I was shot at by the tank crew and had a number of rounds bounce.  So while they could hit me and I could hit them...my rounds were effective...theirs were not...because of range...about 110 feet here (and we were all shooting at 260 fps).

The next tank I didn't get a shot off at because I was eliminated while trying to find a ref to verify the shot when I took it.

The next four however I took the lessons learned from the previous two and played very differently.  In all four sessions I shot and was never seen by my target.  On two of the occasions I shot at beyond effective range of my targets weapons.  In three hours I had five tank kills.

Now...did I call myself a sniper?  Heck no.  Did I play the role of a sniper?  Yes.  I also did recon work using the scope on my marker to pinpoint enemy positions.  On Saturday I moved around the feild and communicated important information to HQ...again the role of a sniper...but never would I consider myself a sniper and tarnish the hard work and dedication that professional military snipers have.  I am not like them and have not earned that title. Also, this situation was unique.  The hard sides of the tank allowed my paint to break.  Had they been regular people, then my effective range would have been the same as theirs.

So...in scenario...yes you can have someone that plays the role of a sniper...but that's the only place.  As has been mentioned...most of the time you are dealing with something that more closely resembles small unit tactics and marksmen.

New to the sport?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 12:52pm
Snipers are in paintball games and thats it...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 1:05pm

why dont we just say anyone who is a good shot is a sniper, i mean thats whats it's becoming in paintball. sounds pretty retarded to me



Edited by SpecklesJ24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 1:07pm
A Sniper is basically defined as a person who can wait long periods of time blended in with there environment without moving to watch a target and eventually eliminate that target. Snipers seldom shoot more than 3 shots in 15 min. unless theres alot of enemies in the area, even then shots are limited. Now if you apply this to paintball in scenerio games or woodsball, not speedball ofcourse, then it is very possible to be a Sniper in Paintball. Now there is a difference in sniping and picking people off. For those who say that there is no such thing as a Paintball sniper, Im not gonna go and say your wrong, its all on personal opinion and Ive learned in my many debates that you cant always change a persons opinion. But I am going to dare you to go to something like D-Day and head to the sniper classes and tell the teachers theres no such thing as sniping in paintball. Because youll prolly loose an eye after the non-exisitng snipers in the woods shoot you. But if you dont belive in PB snipers, then ok, just dont go to a scenerio game believeing that 100%

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 1:43pm

That was the best one yet,^^^Can somone give me the facts, reasons why and why not there are not snipers in painball. In a numbered list, because all this stuff just contradictes the other stuff and so on. Oh, and there are snipers in paintball...

so far: 1. waits long periods of time to take a target down.

            2. is concealled in his enviroment(very well comlaflauged).

             3. is prepared for the next day of sniperizm(by means of recon), or past experience on the feild.

reasons why snipers arne't in paintball.

so far: 1. because in paintball you can't shoot far enough ( meanning that there is a set distance for the shot to count as a sniper shot)."Which is just plane wrong".

           2. only military personal are or have the right to be called a sniper, everyone else is just,.. not... even if they have " a sniper rifle", and can do all the things a sniper can do.

           3. and the classic, "it's just not in painball end of story".

I for one, say "yey" for snipers in painball and the people that say "ney", look at the facts...

 

                                    



Edited by Spot1st
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 1:57pm
HAHAH for a thread that noone wanted to talk about, people still have a
lot to say about it.

I say, do what you want, believe what you want. Respect others for
believing it. But for DO whatch out for people using different tactics. just
because you say there isnt, doesnt mean people are going to stop being
sneaky, cocealed and making balls pitifully touch you from a long
distance.

Just let people play paintball how they see it fit. There is scenario for
people who like the realistic side of things, and speedball for a faster and
more physical yet less realistic approach. Who cares. Have fun. Shoot lots
of people (even if it is just one at a time). Just generally respect people for
what they choose. (unless its your teammated and he's making your side
loose lol)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 1:57pm
HAHAH for a thread that noone wanted to talk about, people still have a
lot to say about it.

I say, do what you want, believe what you want. Respect others for
believing it. But for DO whatch out for people using different tactics. just
because you say there isnt, doesnt mean people are going to stop being
sneaky, cocealed and making balls pitifully touch you from a long
distance.

Just let people play paintball how they see it fit. There is scenario for
people who like the realistic side of things, and speedball for a faster and
more physical yet less realistic approach. Who cares. Have fun. Shoot lots
of people (even if it is just one at a time). Just generally respect people for
what they choose. (unless its your teammated and he's making your side
loose lol)

Have fun on the field fellas.

Buy a corvette and show the world that you know absolutely nothing about cars.
The new VW convertible beatle..... now you can actaully hear people call u and idiot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 2:01pm
Whats up Mr. Afghanistan man, and welcome to the forums. I have one guestion, answer how you see best, "yey" or "ney".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2004 at 2:02pm
Originally posted by Spot1st Spot1st wrote:

That was the best one yet,^^^Can somone give me the facts, reasons why and why not there are not snipers in painball. In a numbered list, because all this stuff just contradictes the other stuff and so on. Oh, and there are snipers in paintball...

so far: 1. waits long periods of time to take a target down.

            2. is concealled in his enviroment(very well comlaflauged).

             3. is prepared for the next day of sniperizm(by means of recon), or past experience on the feild.

reasons why snipers arne't in paintball.

so far: 1. because in paintball you can't shoot far enough ( meanning that there is a set distance for the shot to count as a sniper shot)."Which is just plane wrong".

           2. only military personal are or have the right to be called a sniper, everyone else is just,.. not... even if they have " a sniper rifle", and can do all the things a sniper can do.

           3. and the classic, "it's just not in painball end of story".

I for one, say "yey" for snipers in painball and the people that say "ney", look at the facts...

 

                                    

here's a few more reasons why snipers AREN'T in paintball, which have been mentioned in this thread already:

1. Paintball guns aren't accurate enough.

2. People who consider themselves "snipers" in paintball are actually just using basic infantry techniques, not actual sniper tactics.

3. Wearing camoflauge and sneaking around doesn't make you a sniper. It just makes you sneaky.

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