Tippmann Pneumatics Inc. Homepage
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

if you dont like smart parts come here

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
Author
Rico's Revenge View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

I wanna be a cowboy

Joined: 21 January 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3569
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico's Revenge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 9:55am

Sorry, I had to bring this to the top.   This will be added to my list of dumb forum quotes.

Originally posted by ThEeViLcHiCkEn ThEeViLcHiCkEn wrote:

"You don't work for the companies that Sp but out of business"

um, NOBODY works for them... they are out of business.

Back to Top
DracoPlasm View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What is a DracoPlasm anyway?

Joined: 10 March 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 10:19am
Originally posted by TruePaintballer TruePaintballer wrote:

I personally think they are a great company. I have one beef and that is because i requested a cateloge four times and never got one...Sheessh all I want is a cateloge!


I asked for 1 and got it maybe a month or so later like a cataloge/calender my only beef with the calender is on every OTHER page it had a chick when infact there should of been a chick on EVERY page

Edited by DracoPlasm

Back to Top
Slimz.357 View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 October 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 399
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slimz.357 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 11:19am

Wow, this has been fun to watch, but I think a few things still need to be said.

**edited**tr: I don't mean to attack you buddy, but you seriously do need to grow up a little.

Smart Parts does good business. You say that it's low of them to use such ruthless business tactics, but If you applied that idealistic economic theory to other inventions, America would be begging third world countries for handouts.

The light bulb wouldn't exist because some low-life would have made crappy knock-offs right after it was invented, and no-one would want to use one. The same applies to the telegraph, the TV, the computer, etc...       They called Bill Gates a Nazi because he didn't believe in freeware. But If he didn't make and enforce the patents of common things, you wouldn't be here right now griping about this because the Internet wouldn't exist and computers would still be a novelty for the rich and the supergeek hobbyists.

I mean, have you ever even taken at least a basic economy class? Competition breeds inovation. Inovation breeds inventions which fuel progress and development. Patents promote competition. These are universal truths in the business world.
I really don't think it gets any simpler than that.

"If you make it idiot proof, they'll make a better idiot."
REQUIRED READING
Back to Top
Rico's Revenge View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

I wanna be a cowboy

Joined: 21 January 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3569
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rico's Revenge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 2:50pm

^^^  That makes absolutely no sense.

"The light bulb wouldn't exist because some low-life would have made crappy knock-offs right after it was invented, and no-one would want to use one."

How does a "knock off" negate the invention itself?   There are thousands of illegal Rolex knock offs... just walk down the street in NYC.   But the demand for the real thing is still overwhelming.   And that example is a luxury item.   With the lightbulb, which is a convenience and basically a necessity at present, do you really think that your statement is correct?

I am all for Patents, the Patent Process and Patent defense.   However, in this case, the reasoning behind it was a flat out slap in the face of a still new sport which I happen to love.   I want to promote the sport and get everyone I can possibly effect to become involved.   SP hurt that progress and the PB world in general took a step back and pushed what is still considered a hobby into the corporate cesspool.

However, there is still more to question with regards to SP.   Like why at World Cup the Gardner's told ESPN to pack up and leave before the match between the Oakland and Chicago.   ESPN was there to film 3 games.   The 1st place match was between 2 SP sponsored teams and the outcome was decided after 2 games.   Based on that, ESPN was supposed to stay and tape the first game of the 3rd place match.   Billy Gardner went to the film crews and told them to go ahead and pack it up... which they did.   He had absolutely no right to do so and once they started tearing down, there was no re-set up.   That is the type of person that runs SP and as is my right, I will not give one dime to him.

And, sorry bud, but your grip on economics is extremely loose.  



Edited by Rico's Revenge
Back to Top
boomstick View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 March 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3147
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boomstick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 2:56pm
Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.
YONK~!~
Check This Out
Back to Top
oreomann33 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Can you say ... ZAZZy?

Joined: 11 March 2004
Location: Turkey
Status: Offline
Points: 8102
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oreomann33 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 3:14pm
Making Smart Parts to nazi avatars and trying to boycot smart parts isnt going to stop them or shut them down.They own the rights to it like Clark Kent said thats why we have patents.I own a smart parts tank cover, its great and i didnt think twice about buying it.
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 3:19pm

Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:

Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.

 = ludicrous.

Back to Top
MuRdoc18 View Drop Down
Gold Member
Gold Member
Avatar
aka ALWAYSRIGHT

Joined: 17 March 2004
Location: Togo
Status: Offline
Points: 1256
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MuRdoc18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:

Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.


Um, there are alot of people that dislike them, but i dont think they amount to the number of people that support their products. They are too big of a company to hurt the sport of paintball.

Member of Forumer Against Most Forumers.
Back to Top
matt06 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 May 2003
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3042
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote matt06 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 3:55pm
people dislike them for the same reasons that they disliked them the last time this same question was posted....
Back to Top
AdmiralSenn View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 July 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2683
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


Read the court's decision. SP DID invent (at least in part) the technology behind main patent. But, like idiots, they didn't get the other co-inventor's signature on the employment agreement that assigned the co-inventor's rights to the patent. WDP cleverly bought those rights from the co-inventor.


WDP won because of clever lawyering and because of SP's stupidity - NOT because SP didn't invent anything.

Re-read the posts prior to this


AGD voluntarily stopped production - partially because of fear of lawsuits, but voluntary nonetheless. AKA was infringing on SP's patent. Doesn't matter if it is SP's or WDP's patent - AKA was infringing, as was ICD.


You might as well be mad at the VHS people for shutting down BetaMax. That's what people with patents do. That's why we have patents.

Since when is going against your principles or facing being shut down a "voluntary" choice? Assuming your principles matter to you, it's no choice at all. Unless your principles don't contradict staying in business, you have no choice.


You have been reading too much Doc Nickels...


Assuming Tippmann could have patented the ASA (which is by no means certain), then yes, there would be a royalty fee on each ASA sold. But so what? You pay a royalty fee on each DVD player you buy - has that made DVD players impossibly expensive? Of course not.


Of course, if Tippmann had patented the ASA, somebody else may have invented something different and better, or maybe direct-attach tanks like AIR would be more popular. Or something. The world isn't as simple as Doc makes it out to be.


And, further, to hold up Tippmann as some kind of model of business kindness is silly. How many patents does Tippmann hold? (Answer - lots) How come there isn't a Cyclone on every Spyder? Or a Flatline on every ATS gun? Because Tippmann won't let them, that's why. Bottom line - as to patent management, Tippmann DOES follow the same practices as SP. If ICD came out with a Cyclone clone tomorrow, you can bet that Tippmann would sue the next day.


Is it possible that Tippmann passed up an opportunity to patent something? Sure. Does that mean that Tippmann is goody-two-shoes, and SP is the devil? Of course not.

I don't read Doc Nickel's stuff. I got the patent info from the US Patent and Trade Offices.

The argument here is not that the items are horribly expensive. It's that the money goes to a different company than the one you're supporting. So if you don't like SP but buy a Spyder with an SP-licensed board, you're effectively supporting SP.

I did not say Tippmann was a business model. I'm saying that they care about their customers (compare Tippmann customer support complaints to SP support complaints).

No, Tippmann does NOT follow SP's practices. The ASA is a universally used part. There is already competition for the cyclone from several existing products - Warp feeds, force-feeds, agitators. ASA vs 12 gram.. hmmm... Obvious inferiority, hence why patenting the ASA would be "evil". Monopolizing the clearly superior item is not nice. The Cyclone is not clearly superior to all other loaders. The Flatline is similarly of dubious results (otherwise everyone would have one that could afford them).

Electronics, as broad as SP's supposed patents are, is a very broad range of products. There are tons of variations on products that all "use a solenoid to fire a paintball marker". Example: Compare a mag to an inline blowback, or an ATS gun.

If ICD came out with a Cyclone tomorrow, it would be Tippmann's right to sue. They clearly state that it's patented, and they didn't wait for a few years to say "Oh gosh, we have the patent to this! I'm suing!" the way SP did.

Tippmann is not a goody-two-shoes. I support Tippmann because I have yet to see them patent something that's universally applicable (as the Cyclone and Flatline are not).

I jokingly say that SP is the devil, because they have shut down numerous guns and hurt the sport quite badly, in my opinion. If Tippmann had patented the ASA, I would have been upset (had I been of the age to know about it and care).


Innovation? Exactly what is innovative about an ICD gun? Patent is there to encorage innovation. The reason SP was able to shut down ICD was because ICD wasn't being innovative. Patent law allows you to patent innovation, including improvements over old patents.



Shutting down a company's source of funding (in this case several guns) will reduce their effectiveness. This is why Microsoft stuff is so bad - they have no competition in the PC market to worry about, and so they have no reason to fix anything - you have no choice but to buy Microsoft stuff unless you switch to Linux.

How about DeadlyWind's Hairtrigger? There's some innovation for you, brought about in part (IMO) by determination not to use electronics. Qloader, Cyclone, Flatline - THAT is innovation.


But more importantly - if patents don't hold up, nobody would bother to innovate, because infringers like ICD would come along and rip off your stuff.


SP did (TMK) nothing different from every other company that isn't being run from a garage.



Again, the Cyclone, Flatline, and Q-loader are not universally and obviously superior. They each have multiple competitors (and the hair trigger is patented, by the way).

Removing the Cyclone, Flatline, and Q-loader from the R&D of other companies does not remove a vast sector of the market, and does not channel expansion of the sport towards one company. If people wanted Cyclones on their guns, they would have them, and something would be arranged. People already had electronics out there when SP started going ape on them.




This is not about if patents hold up or not. It is about who actually owns the patent, and if it should have existed or not. Perhaps an electronic system with a ram mounted backwards, that retracted when activated, would have worked better. But if SP had their way, only *they* could actually produce it (or receive royalties), even if they had NOTHING to do with the invention.

For a small-time inventor (like Shenk or, recently, myself) that would just about kill the project, or take a huge amount of money from the inventor. Trust me on this one.

Edited by AdmiralSenn
Is God real? You'll find out when you die.

Okay, I don't have a clever signature zinger. So sue me.
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:19pm

If I can summarize:  It is ok to patent (and enforce said patent) small portions of a market, but not ok to patent large portions of a market.

Is that your point?

Back to Top
AdmiralSenn View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 July 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2683
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:23pm
Pretty much. Large portions tends to end up as "monopoly" and will get the patent issuer in deep trouble.

Is God real? You'll find out when you die.

Okay, I don't have a clever signature zinger. So sue me.
Back to Top
High Voltage View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
Fire in the disco

Joined: 12 March 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Status: Offline
Points: 14179
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:26pm
/me high five's AdmiralSenn
Back to Top
Clark Kent View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 July 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8716
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:27pm

Thank you.  I then include your argument in the "ludicrous" category.

 

Back to Top
boomstick View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 March 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3147
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boomstick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by MuRdoc18 MuRdoc18 wrote:

Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:

Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.


Um, there are alot of people that dislike them, but i dont think they amount to the number of people that support their products. They are too big of a company to hurt the sport of paintball.

You're right. They are hurting the smaller paintball companies.
YONK~!~
Check This Out
Back to Top
AdmiralSenn View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 07 July 2002
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2683
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Thank you. I then include your argument in the "ludicrous" category.




You deny that controlling large sectors of a market is monopoly?

From investorwords.com, monopoly is:

'A situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service. This would happen in the case that there is a barrier to entry into the industry that allows the single company to operate without competition (for example, vast economies of scale, barriers to entry, or governmental regulation). In such an industry structure, the producer will often produce a volume that is less than the amount which would maximize social welfare. '

Edited by AdmiralSenn
Is God real? You'll find out when you die.

Okay, I don't have a clever signature zinger. So sue me.
Back to Top
DracoPlasm View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What is a DracoPlasm anyway?

Joined: 10 March 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:51pm
These people here who think running a business is all about being nice and friendly with your competitors as apose to being ruthless and doing what it takes to make money which by the way is the point of a business would stand no chance running anything other then a gas station you can go ahead and start practicing putting gas in my car cause thats what your gonna end up doing if you think business is all buddy buddy

Back to Top
DracoPlasm View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Avatar
What is a DracoPlasm anyway?

Joined: 10 March 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:


Originally posted by MuRdoc18 MuRdoc18 wrote:

Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:

Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy
their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.


Um, there are alot of people that dislike them, but i dont think they
amount to the number of people that support their products. They are
too big of a company to hurt the sport of paintball.

You're right. They are hurting the smaller paintball companies.


Smaller paintball companies are crap anyways they never have the right stuff and if they get beat by smart parts oh well thats business you dont start out at the top

Back to Top
Hairball!!! View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

traded 2yo strike for crappy title

Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: Snow (again)
Status: Offline
Points: 6866
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hairball!!! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 5:06pm
I dislike SP just because of their business practices. If say, Epson, decided to sue the hell out of every printer manufacturer, there would be an uproar. It wouldn't be cool. However it's a slightly different situation with paintball and Smart Parts.

Paintball guns are very complex devices that can work so many ways to do the same thing, fire a paintball. Because of this, the market/developers can conform around this issue if SP decides to force out all other electropneumatic guns. When a product that functions in a specific way is made or just is exclusive to one company, then a product that functions differently and potentially bettor will come out. It's true that patents induce development.

Be that as it may, I still don't like Smart Parts because of their asshole business tactics.
Back to Top
Hairball!!! View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member

traded 2yo strike for crappy title

Joined: 12 June 2002
Location: Snow (again)
Status: Offline
Points: 6866
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hairball!!! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 December 2004 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by DracoPlasm DracoPlasm wrote:

Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:


Originally posted by MuRdoc18 MuRdoc18 wrote:

Originally posted by boomstick boomstick wrote:

Smart parts is hurting the paintball world. If you buy
their products, you are supporting nazis. It's as easy as that.


Um, there are alot of people that dislike them, but i dont think they
amount to the number of people that support their products. They are
too big of a company to hurt the sport of paintball.

You're right. They are hurting the smaller paintball companies.


Smaller paintball companies are crap anyways they never have the right stuff and if they get beat by smart parts oh well thats business you dont start out at the top


AGD is a smaller company. CCI is a smaller company. Freeflow is a smaller company. These are all far from the smallest paintball companies, but their stuff kicks ass.

You may not start out at the top, but a good product will certainly make it much easier to be successful.

Edited by Hairball!!!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 10.03

This page was generated in 0.170 seconds.