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Freedom is overrated...

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Barretm82 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barretm82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:07pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Back on topic...


The claim that because Rome fell due to decadence and excessive freedoms, we are doomed to do the same is unfounded and flawed.


-snip--

Each individual freedom is be cherished, and surrendered only for good cause and with due qualifications.† A general goal, for its own sake,†of diminishing freedoms is, to me, the very definition of evil.



Does the failure of nations, not start with the failure of individual responsibility?

Edited by Barretm82
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Shadowminion View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:08pm

Winning WHAT ?? this is a discussion , not a prize fight , lol

I firmly believe and endorse personal responsibility , , without it , there is nothing,

The points I have mentioned in previous posts , have been affirmed by others , more eloquently , and with more basis in fact , than I can muster at this time . To those people , I send my thanks and support ! and for Barrelbreak , well, I am still confused as to what you mean , Take another toke , and get some rest , get back with me later,



Edited by Shadowminion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BARREL BREAK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:09pm
i fail to see your point? ^
At top

EDIT: i mean, you are beginning to see you are wrong, but would rather go away than admit it

Edited by BARREL BREAK
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowminion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:10pm

what was it you thought I was conceding then ?

 

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Clark Kent View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:12pm

Originally posted by Barretm82 Barretm82 wrote:

Does the failure of nations, not start with the failure of individual responsibility?

Hm.  Tricky question.

Before I can try to answer - what is the failure of a nation?  When has a nation "failed?"  (Hence my query about whether Rome really fell)

Did France "fail" at the French revolution?  If so, what is France now?  (French jokes aside)

At some level, your point is obviously true - the Third Reich "failed" because individual leaders and soldiers failed their responsibilities in completing their duties - but I don't think that was what you meant.  Can you clarify?

 

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Barretm82 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barretm82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Barretm82 Barretm82 wrote:

Does the failure of nations, not start with the failure of individual responsibility?


Hm.† Tricky question.


Before I can try to answer - what is the failure of a nation?† When has a nation "failed?"† (Hence my query about whether Rome really fell)


Did France "fail" at the French revolution?† If so, what is France now?† (French jokes aside)


At some level, your point is obviously true - the Third Reich "failed" because individual leaders and soldiers failed their responsibilities in completing their duties - but I don't think that was what you meant.† Can you clarify?




Yes, however I'll need some time to run this one thru, unforunately I have to leave, (Getting evil eye from wife) :)   

See you tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Panda Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 10:20pm

this is going no where...

Freedom cant last forever, the American people don't know whats good for them, and ever society will fall.

There discussion over.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CLANDESTINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 11:35pm
I dont need society to practice my freedoms. From my cold dead hands......................................
If your mind is too open your brains will fall out.
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Barretm82 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barretm82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 7:37am
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Barretm82 Barretm82 wrote:

Does the failure of nations, not start with the failure of individual responsibility?


Hm.† Tricky question.


Before I can try to answer - what is the failure of a nation?† When has a nation "failed?"† (Hence my query about whether Rome really fell)


Did France "fail" at the French revolution?† If so, what is France now?† (French jokes aside)


At some level, your point is obviously true - the Third Reich "failed" because individual leaders and soldiers failed their responsibilities in completing their duties - but I don't think that was what you meant.† Can you clarify?




I suspect you have an idea of what I meant. However the reason I am being reserved (coy) is that I don't want to influence your thoughts.

If you don't mind helping out, how do you think my statement would be applicable in your opinion?

Thx.
Steve



Edited by Barretm82
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Who cares. I have an idea, shut up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 8:17am

Barret - I do think I have an idea what you meant.   :)

To apply to my thoughts - I think that "freedom" and "responsibility" are separate concepts.  BUT - with freedom comes the opportunity for more responsibility.  Somebody with no freedom cannot meaningfully have responsibility.  To have responsibility one must first have freedom to act - at least to some extent.

Looking to the root of "responsibility" we find that it comes from being able to respond, to act, to answer.  I read into the very word the idea that with action comes the answer - if you are able to act, you are also able to answer for your actions.  If you are unable to act, you are unable to answer for your actions, whether to accept blame or accolade.

(There is a major tangent here about determinism and accomplishment, but I'll leave that for later...)

For this reason, "I was just following orders" has always been, to some extent, a legitimate excuse in the right context.  Nobody held the average stormtrooper responsible for the horrors of the Third Reich.  Similarly, nobody holds the individual slaves responsible for the fall of Rome.  They had no freedom, therefore they had no responsibility, therefore they are free of blame.

I'm rambling a bit here...  and I have to run.  Will take up this train of thought in a bit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 8:34am
I keep waiting...  What freedoms are hurting us?  Please list which ones need to go.  Put up, or shut up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whack-a-mole Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 9:42am
bottom line, all big nations and empires will eventually fall. history tells us this. It's just a matter of when...ours is no different. I hope it's not anytime soon, though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlentifulBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 1:47pm
If the US falls, meh. if it doesnt fall, meh. Knowing I'm not one of those greedy bastards or politicians is good enough for me.

I'll let future generations worry about this.

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well...ya i prolly will be a virgin till i'm at least 30.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dead Man Walkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 2:06pm
The problem with freedom is that it isn't free. Look at how many people have to give up their lives in order to keep us safe. Look at how when you join the service you basically give up your entire life. Look at how when you turn 18 you are forced to join the selective service or you're going to jail. What about the families? My father is in the airforce and he went away for five months last year. Now to some that's nothing but my dad has never gone away. So yeah freedom's a crock because the little amount that we get, we have to bust our asses for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 2:13pm

So freedom sucks because you have to pay for it?  Interesting theory...

But to quickly finish up my rambling from above...

Just because you have freedom, doesn't mean you have responsibility - it means you have potential for responsibility. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EYES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 3:26pm

And you can thank the ignorance and direct, total disregard and dismissal of the people by the government for that failure.

The "fall" of a country is not necessarily the fall of a people, but the fall and failure of a government. And it is not due to the common mistakes and morals of every man, it is due to the mistakes of the leaders, and the polluted and flawed government itself.

Oh, and as far as restraining freedoms goes, I have one of my favorites to share with you. "A man who compromises essential liberties for temporary safety, deserves neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin. And it is due to him that you are enjoying such liberties.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by EYES EYES wrote:

The "fall" of a country is not necessarily the fall of a people, but the fall and failure of a government.

Excellent distinction. 

I also agree with the rest of EYES' post...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barretm82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:


I'm rambling a bit here...† and I have to run.† Will take up this train of thought in a bit.



Hi KC,
Considering we are both around the forum, I'll have to get back to this one in a few weeks. Hopefully you will be around then as currently my work schedule is excessive and I can not devote much forum chat time.

TTYL;
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Tae Kwon Do Tae Kwon Do wrote:

Well, if you look at world history, EVERY great nation will fall eventually. Persians, Greeks, Romans, Brittish, every Empire eventually looses its grasp and slips into a smaller cut.


Personally I dont think we have too many freedoms. I can not think of a single freedom that I think I would be willing to give up just because some people are paranoid that Americans will implode on themselves.



Hehe... What I have is not paranoia. What I have is an observation based on a deep understanding of the human mind.

There may be no realistic way to limit freedoms fairly and justly. Once again, human nature is vile and tends to turn control into corruption.

Those liberals who have posted in this thread can hereby unwad their panties. Those conservatives who've said stupid things like "yeah, those damn liberals are causing ALL our problems" need to get a girlfriend... and preferably not their sister this time.

I'm not talking about support for a political party, I'm talking about a base level of honor and integrity that's lacking from the common American. Whether you want to admit it or not, we are making a corruptive shift in morality. As they say, what comes around goes around, and we're going to get our selfishness paid back to us tenfold.

Some of you, especially the young, have too narrow of a world view to understand what I'm saying. Some understand and simply disagree. Either way, that's fine. But you're doing yourself a grave disservice to tune me out simply because this doesn't fit your assumptions.

But rest assured, honor is the only true way to live and the only path to happiness - as an individual AND as a nation. Ignore it at your own risk.
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