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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 10:36pm
Just because a marker is made up to look like a sniper rifle doesn’t mean that it cant do anymore then a marker that can shoot 20bps and looks like a assault rifle.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Chief have you actually tried this out. To see if the flatline will not extend your range. Ive seen it done, we tested this theory out. Cause I thought the same way.


Didn't have too. I know the guy who did the testing that provided the data. For that matter, so do several others around this forum. That testing was done as part of the fielding of the flatline and caused Tippmann to pull the ad campaign that claimed that velocity dropped at a lower rate when using one.


Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

If you think that the flatline outshoots most barrels by 50 or more feet. For the ball to stay up that long even with backspin past other barrels its still moving on enought to break at 10-25ft. further than other guns. My friends tippy will outshoot his angel by 25 foot busting balls his angel cant hit it. You go any further and the tippy quits busting. From the way you talk  25ft can make a difference in this game. So you can be at a demoralizing range, and you can be completely concealed. 


Already covered the range questions several times in this thread. All paintballs lose energy at the same rate. It's called ballistics. Please, unless you can provided imperical data, let's move on.

For incoming direct fire to be demoralizing, there must be effectively nothing that the troops can do about it. At the ranges that paintball is played at that isn't possible.

Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Don't say well the flatline is too loud and they will hear. I assuming with your back-ground in the military youve heard a m82 shot. I personally havent but I know its louder than crap. It may not be the sniping your used to. 


First, yes the flatline is loud and will give your position away, if there is no other sound to cover it.

First, the M82 Berret is not the standard rifle used by our military snipers. It's role is extreme range shooting. Second, no I haven't heard one fired. Third, it uses the same round as the M2 Heavy Machine Gun which I have fired. Yes it is very loud.

The last time I worked with snipers, they were using heavily customized M14's that fired .308 rounds. As I understand it, the current standard sniper rifle is still using the .308 but has gone back to basicly being a customized Winchester or Remington bolt action. The point being that the rifle being used has a segnificantly greater range by several factors than the standard issue weapon in the hands of the enemy.

Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

The shots may not be as long, and harder to keep hidden. Think about the revolutionary war, America appointed snipers, they gave them the same muskets as everybody else with a scope. Now because you slap a scope on a gun doesnt make it fire further. So they really couldnt be out of range of return fire. HMMM, guess what these were your first snipers. They hardly used any concealment or camo, and deffinately not a ghuille suit. Most of them were hunters and farm boys that could shoot at longer ranges than their buddies.


You need to go back and recheck your data. Revolutionary snipers usually did have the kind of back ground that you've noted. Were you deviate is thier weapon. First, IIRC there weren't any scoped weapons until the American Civil War. Second, the weapon they did use was a rifle not a musket, usually thier own. An iron sighted long rifle in the hands of an expert greatly out ranges any musket.


Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Now because you cant hit 4 out 5 at a certain range doesnt mean the guy next to you cant. 


Not sure what your point is here.

Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Any how what makes you so mad when people say they are going to snipe. Is that a commandment of yours, Thou shalt not say snipe when referring to paintball. Have a nice day.


What makes you thing that I'm mad?

I'm an NCO. What that means is that it's my job to teach and lead. When I see that someone doesn't understand the tactics associated with a skill set/job title that they try to claim it's by bound duty to correct them. Sometimes I'm rather blunt about, and that sometimes can be mistaked for anger.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by lionheart lionheart wrote:


sniping not possible tell that too me on the field and be proved wrong.

equipment
WS-66 w/ reddot + barrel exs *cough* silencer *cough* tenshion
zeus g2 its got a barrel "exstenshion" too
proteus 2 spectra mask
full ghili
diggis
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liter of h20
full tool kit
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glow sticks and other esentials for night work

my spotter
ghili binocs a pro carbine barrel "exstenshion" talkie and throat mic
and about 400 paint some paint grenades trip wire and claymor's MRE's
water rough guestimate of his gear.

that equipment will last us for about 12 hours play.  Hopefully we will get up to skirmish USA
for D Day this year.

sniping tip of the day - look for movement, then look for shape,
identify the target, breath in, breath out and pull the trigger dont
jerk it , tagged another one.



What to say too this? If you want a leason on the field, just show up at a game attended by OMHW and introduce yourself.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2004 at 12:02am

Originally posted by SR_Crewchief SR_Crewchief wrote:

First, the M82 Berret is not the standard rifle used by our military snipers. It's role is extreme range shooting. Second, no I haven't heard one fired. Third, it uses the same round as the M2 Heavy Machine Gun which I have fired. Yes it is very loud.

The last time I worked with snipers, they were using heavily customized M14's that fired .308 rounds. As I understand it, the current standard sniper rifle is still using the .308 but has gone back to basicly being a customized Winchester or Remington bolt action.

SR_Crewchief is right... the Barrett M82 (XM107) is way too big and bulky to be a true sniper rifle... it prohibits the easy movement and concealment of a sniper team... the military doesn't have match grade .50BMG which cuts down its range... it is semi automatic which ruins the shot to shot consistency... it's not a true sniper rifle but its range (1500-2000m) makes it a contender... it has its purposes... a .50BMG in semi auto will make light work out of an APC, any other enemy vehicle, or stronghold... the Barrett M95 is actually a much better choice, bolt action, cryogenically treated barrel, bullpup design, 5-rd box magazine (as opposed to the 10)... but for some reason the military went with semi auto...

Currently the Springfield M1A can be customized for sniper applications... the M24 sniper system used by rangers/etc, is simply a Remington 700 (the industry standard bolt action .308) with a RIDICULOUS bull barrel... the barrel is like an 1.5" diameter... the rifle weighs like 11 pounds unloaded with the bipod and scope... my gunsmith just built one... carlos hathcock (aka white feather) one of the most famous usmc snipers from vietnam used a .308 winchester hunting rifle (as did most of the early snipers)... he had something like 93 confirmed kills including a 2500 yard shot... there is a book written about him...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 October 2004 at 11:16pm

     (I apoligize for the changing fonts.  This was a cut and paste job.)      

 

     The fundamental problem in the sniping debate is that people are basing their arguments on different definitions of the term.  Many people have the image of a high-powered rifle with a range of hundreds of yards in mind when they dismiss the idea of sniping in paintball.  For example:

 

vftactical2:

“there is no sniping sniping requires a high powered silenced rifle were shootin paintball gun a that only shoot about 150 yards thats not that far so there is no sniping.”

 

And

 

Robert_Hawker

“there is no such thing as sniping however you can be a good shot thus i have a designated sharp shooter on my teem for when you have to shoot from a distance and you dont want to give away your position. but if you call anything less that 150 yards sniping you need a new dictionary.”

 

 

However, the above are inappropriate definitions of sniping as it applies to paintball.  Paintball (particularly woodsball) is a mere facsimile of real life military combat.  Everything has been scaled down and redefined.  There are many military tactics that are applicable to woodsball (suppressive fire, flanking, etc.), but there are also many that are not.  For instance a bush would never provide effective cover (only concealment) in real life.  But we accept this as an approximation of reality.  So too must sniping be considered merely an approximation of the real thing.

 

True story:  Location—South Vietnam (SC Village, southern California).  South Vietnam consists of a plywood village surrounded by thick “jungle”.  In this game, the opposing team began in the village; my team began in the perimeter.  At the sound of the whistle, all hell broke loose around the edges of town in classic Halo-style combat.  I went for the quietest position which in this case was right down the middle.  I crawled on my belly for at least 5 minutes (an eternity in a game such as this) through the bushes slowly and methodically.  At last I reached the village.  What I saw was essentially a swarm of bees defending their nest and completely oblivious to my presence.  One mask popped up in a window and a white burst instantly bloomed on his goggles.  He pointed his buddy to the east (the area of most commotion), completely unaware of the gunman to his south.  His buddy peaked around the corner facing east, completely exposing his right side to me.  One shot missed, but the next hit him square in the shoulder.  He knew where it came from obviously, but never saw me.  This happened three more times for a total of 5 stealth kills before the match was over.  In every case I was within (perhaps just on the edge of) the enemy’s effective range, but a combination of patience, stealth and careful aim on my part—as well as tunnel vision on their part—resulted in a very effective assault.  I sniped each and every one of them.

 

To argue that the above case was sharpshooting and not sniping is a matter of semantics and therefore meaningless.  Again, the definition is what’s important, not the term.  SR_Crewchief provides the most comprehensive definition (and argument against) sniping, but I don’t know if the literal interpretation is fair.  Just as paintball in general is a matter of scale, so is sniping in paintball.  It is not the equipment nor the distance, per se, that makes a sniper, but the approach.  If one player utilizes no camouflage, but instead runs from cover point to cover point—taking advantage of speed, suppression and volume whereas another player utilizes stealth, camouflage and possibly distance . . . are both players the same type of “soldier”?  What term would differentiate the second from the first?  “Scout” may work, but I think “sniper” is just as valid.  No, the sniper will not necessarily always take out players from vast distances—but this is paintball and as I’ve already mentioned, paintball is a facsimile of the real thing.  You can’t take someone out at 500 feet, yet you can hide behind a bush—both are equally absurd approximations of reality.

 

             Since SR_Crewchief provides the most effective argument against sniping in paintball, I’d like to address some of his points:

 

SR_Crewchief

“In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
· A superior marksman
· Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
· The ability to approach the target without being detected
· Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
· The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
· The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged”

 

             He capitulates that the first three are possible in paintball (and my above story is one example).  I would argue that those first criteria—marksmanship, camouflage, evade detection—are enough for one to be considered a paintball sniper.  I would say the last two (engage target without detection and get away without detection) are harder but possible (again, see above story).  Then there is the issue of effective range which comes with further quotations:

 

SR_Crewchief

“No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range.”

“For a sniper, any sniper, to be effective they must be able to effectively engage targets from outside effective return fire.”

“The point being that the rifle being used has a segnificantly greater range by several factors than the standard issue weapon in the hands of the enemy.”

 

             Paintball guns do not all have the same range.  Ever shoot a splatmaster?  Excluding the flatline, which is a special case, effective range is based on velocity AND spin.  A cheaper gun or cheaper barrel is going to send that ball in all kinds of crazy directions well before a higher quality piece of hardware.  The difference in effective range between such guns may only be a matter of feet or tens of feet, but on the scale of a paintball field a few feet make all the difference.  It may seem inconsequential, but a few feet in woodsball are worth a few hundred yards in the real world.  If I’m standing in an open field holding a gun with an effective range of exactly 100 feet across from a guy with an effective range of 90 feet and we’re 100 feet apart I am out of his range and he is in mine regardless of whether the difference is 10 feet or a thousand.  I wouldn’t call this situation sniping, but the point is paintball guns differ in range.  And these seemingly small differences are actually significant especially considering that markers can actually differ by 30 or more feet.

 

             There does come a point at which the paintballs won’t break.  Flatline most likely enters this range.  But let’s consider the distances.  Let’s say a maker with a good barrel can shoot straight for 150 feet (or whatever, I’m just going to use 150 as my benchmark).  The flatline is supposed to be able to add an extra 80.  But perhaps at 230 (150 + 80) feet the balls don’t break.  Does that nullify the effects of the flatline?  Perhaps it’s ineffective at +80 feet, but what about at all those intermediate distances beyond the standard custom barrel?  What about at +40 feet?  If the paintballs can break at 190 feet (150 + 40 which is likely), then the flatline has an effective range 40 feet greater than the competitor.  40 feet!  That’s VERY significant.  Or even if the effective break distance is only 25 feet greater (which is almost certainly an underestimation) it is still quite a significant range.

 

             Some would say however that although the flatline will travel that far, it’s inaccurate at such a distance.  Although that is debatable, it still doesn’t matter.  If only 1 out of 4 of your shots will hit at this distance, you have a 25% chance of a hit.  That is a 25% chance against your  opponents 0% chance due to you being outside their ball’s travel distance (without them having to aim to the sky and mortar their paintballs onto the twigs above your head).  So while I agree the flatline may not be effective at its MAXIMUM range, but there is a whole 80 feet of play to work with—that’s a pretty comfortable margin if you ask me.

 

             But, enough of the flatline.  The point is sniping is a tactic that emphasizes stealth, camouflage and marksmanship over the more common runnin’ and gunnin’ Halo style gameplay.  Diversity and coordination is what makes a team strong.  Each style of game play has its weakness.  A team that utilizes a range of tactics, in other words a team that is diverse will have a distinct advantage over an otherwise equally skilled team employing the standard, predictable maneuvers.  Call it what you want, but sniping can be done in paintball. 



Edited by aphasia223
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2004 at 10:10am

i can tell you right now that there is sniping *my specs below* 4 of the guys that play in my town including me have sniper guns custom fitted so all they can do is snipe and shoot long range very acuate it how we play woods ball

no you dont sit in one spot you move frequently you just arent seen

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2004 at 10:20pm
aphasia223, welcome too the forum. And too the ever present discussion.

The central issue too this long standing "disagreement" has to do with some players who wish to given themselves a title that sets them above and apart from other players. In almost all cases without truely knowing what that title actually means. Not whether or not situations arise in a game were you can take a carefully aimed shot or three.

You say that the first three points qualify as sniping? Not really, they do destiquish experience players thou, nothing more.

Your question about whether I've shot a Splatmaster, the answer is yes. If two guns fire the same ball at the same velocity on the same initial trajectory, they will travel the same distance. It's basic ballistics. Spin in your context has nothing to do with range, but is does infuence accuracy. In your example, the person whose shots are consistantly dropping at 90ft is firing at a lower muzzle velocity than the one 100ft.

Accuracy is a bigger factor in the game then ballistic range. If you take the players shooting technique out of the equation then there are only three factors that impact, 1)the paintball 2)consistancy of delivered pressure to the chamber 3)friction coeficient of the barrel. Axial spin has neglegable effect. The paintball we can do very little about from ball to ball. Consistancy of delivered pressure is best handled by using N2 or Compressed Air. A highly polished barrel bore handles the last. What happens is that the ball will wabble or bounce as it travels down the barrel. By having as consistant as possible delivered air pressure to the chamber and reducing the friction of the bore surface the amount of wabble is reduced improving overall accuracy. Remeber, we are using a round plyable ball in a smoothbore.

I've addressed the flatlines range earlier in this thread. I'll recap. By imparting a backspin in place of an axial spin it provides aerodynamic lift which provides the increased ballistic range. But the ball still looses velosity at the same rate as any other ball. Which means that balls fired from a flatline will stop breaking on the same surface at the same range as a ball fired from a traditional barrel, provided that they both left the barrel at the same muzzle velosity. The major drawback to the flatline is that balls fire from one are more prone to infuance by the wind.

Good movement technique, use of cover and consealment, and marksmanship are the hallmarks of experienced players nothing more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 October 2004 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Model98Sniper1 Model98Sniper1 wrote:

i can tell you right now that there is sniping *my specs below* 4 of the guys that play in my town including me have sniper guns custom fitted so all they can do is snipe and shoot long range very acuate it how we play woods ball


no you dont sit in one spot you move frequently you just arent seen



Here is an old axiom around here that you need to learn, "the gun does not make the player".

I have two guns that are as heavily modified or more than yours and they don't make me a sniper. They are merely tools that give me a better than average chance to hit what I aim at.

Remember, this is a game of tactics not tools.

Edited by SR_Crewchief
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 October 2004 at 8:40am
i know it tactics am on of the Lt.'s on my team i take people with me and i get orders from the people who are better than me. I will prefure to shoot a longer distance than in close range,and i know its the player not the gun but the gun is merely a tool but unless it is to your specifications and your desires than you wont respect it as much
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 October 2004 at 8:59am

Originally posted by Amy's Angel Amy's Angel wrote:

Now listen up ladies,

I'm gonna say this once and for all. Sniping IS possible. Like I said in my other post, Armotech makes a paintball rifle perfectly suited for that job.

And, no, it is not hard to look through a scope with your goggles on. Ive tried it. It is as easy as looking down a scope without the blimey goggles on.

And, jus to tell you... it is not required to have a silenced rifle to pull off this trick. Jus get a perforated barrel... cuts the chatter down about 75 %.

Alright, Peace out and rock on.

Im outta here...

 

Wow...you really have no idea what you're talking about do you...

You can't snipe, you'll never be able to snipe, until they find another propellant besides compressed gasses.  Obviously you're a complete newbie if you insist that sniping is possible in paintball.  Armortech makes Mil-Sim guns NOT "SNIPER RIFLES".  Please get your facts straight before you start to argue your point.  And try playing paintball more, so you actually have a clue what you're talking about.

And please, stop calling everyone "ladies", unless they are a female.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2004 at 11:19pm
Sr Crewchief first of all respect, but I disagree with you in some points.

1.The term paintball sniper is often claimed by those who do not know really what they are talking about or doing.

2.The standard military/law enforcement ideas can not be transfered to paintball and mean the same thing (PS I'am L.E. with S.O.D experience)

Now traveling to scenarios and some big games there are people who are paintball snipers. I have seen these people(though they are few) who can get behind enimey lines, call recon (a primary role for a L.E. sniper), and then take out a selected target (a general). Yes most of the time they will be found, but they got into areas denied to normal "troops". They used camo/concealment effectively, they moved with out being found and did the damage. When playing the senarios/big games there is all a little role playing by everyone, so why not a sniper.

Granted there are many who use the term to often and in a normal sunday woods game at the local field there is no sniper.

The next thing is to some people who posted saying woods ball is not paintball. Sorry guys it started in the woods and is stilled played there. Why try to spilt players when there is enough prople out there trying to ban paintball? because you ride a street bike and don't do motorcross are you not a motorcycle rider now?

   My next bone is guys talking about stuff they don't know. for the junior rambo...
1. yes the military does have 50 cal match ammo for their 50 cal rifles.
2. most modern sniper rifles, except those that are miltary semis (ie SRS) are modified bolt actions that were first used as hunting guns. Hathcocks rifle was a Modified Hunting Rifle, the M-24 is a Modified Hunting Rifle, for the most part all bolt action sniper rifles are Modified Hunting Rifles or Actions
3. Hathcocks longest shot, the 2500 yard, was with a M-2 50 cal using 50 BMG(belted machine gun) so I guess it did have the range.

Sr Crewchief, yeah most of the M-14 snipers rifles are going out since there has not been a run of miltary-14's in so long. They were running out of parts.

Just some thoughts from someone who has been there.

Edited by bull014
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2004 at 2:56pm
keithex, long trang du kich (white feather sniper in veitnamise) used a m2 50 cal with a scope mounted on it for the 2500 yard head shot. stop these endless sniper debats everyone, this forum has seen way to many of them

Cheif, your by far the most intelligente person in this thread of non intelligence, ya the isralies actually use the barret more than we do, for exactly what you said, shooting at apc's they call it their "hard target interdiction rifle" The army favors the winchester 308 magnum, while the marines favor the remington 700 magnum.

and to everyone real snipers play pump

Edited by GhilleMan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2004 at 2:59pm

Originally posted by That one Dude That one Dude wrote:

There's a reason that S.C. Village uses them as rental guns..........They suck, big time.

The P/C is one of the coolest guns ever. You suck, big time!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2004 at 3:02pm

THERE IS SNIPING IN PAINTBALL....         ;     lol jk jk no such thing u NEWBS!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2004 at 10:09am
First of all the Pro-Carbine is a great gun, sturdy,dependable, and simple to use, everyone should have one as an spare/loner gun. As for the Sniping debate,as Sr_Crewchief said if you want to prove him wrong just show up to any game that OMHW is at. You can hide and wait and you will get one of us with your first or second shot after that any hopes or dreams of being a sniper are over
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2004 at 1:27pm

Enough of this crap fest.

While Sr_Crewchief is doing a wonderful job of shooting to hell all the hollywood glory induced fantasies that are being spewed out by the kiddies in here, I'm not sitting through this anymore. My only regret was that I didn't see this before the stupidity got too thick.

Kiss it goodbye.



Edited by Reb Cpl


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