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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 5:55am
Yes ma'am.

Will do.

   Now have a rotten day.

    I am outta here.

     Peace.
NOW REMEMBER KIDS... FLIES SPREAD DISEASE... SO KEEP YOURS CLOSED !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 8:21am
Now I could care less about this "sniping" topic. Whether you call it shooting at a designated distance or sniping. Though according to you and the statement that people can hearthe gun, Crewchief youve always known where the ball came from. I dont know but www.xpaintball.com believe there is snipin in paintball. http://store.yahoo.com/xtremepaintball/tistli.html

Edited by Phear_Mike

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 10:35pm
Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Now I could care less about this "sniping" topic. Whether you call it shooting at a designated distance or sniping. Though according to you and the statement that people can hearthe gun, Crewchief youve always known where the ball came from. I dont know but www.xpaintball.com believe there is snipin in paintball. http://store.yahoo.com/xtremepaintball/tistli.html


So what your point?

As far as your edited in links go, they're trying to sell you something nothing more.

On the previous page I outlined the basic, and only the basic, tactics that differentiate a military tactical sniper from the average soldier. If someone wishes to label themself a sniper to diffentiate themself from the average player, they should know what defines a sniper. They should also be prepared to back it with something other than personal opinion.

My statements come from years of tactical experience and training. You'll note that I don't say that you can't try to apply the tactics of a sniper to paintball, just that you won't be effective and why.

Most people think that the art of consealment and accurate shooting are what make a sniper, nothing could be further from the truth. That is nothing more than basic training for any soldier. And if you do a little searching in this forum you'll find several places where I tell you what branch of the Army I retired from. My handle is a clue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2004 at 11:13pm
^^ I like you all ready. most people on the forum have no experiance at all.. neither do i but i dont go off on people with diffrent opinions than my self. i do know what it is to be a sniper.. well sort of... but o well i am a good shot and i have a flatline dose that make me a sniper, Hell no!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 12:18am

SR_Crewchief schooled everyone on this thread...

100 yds is for "sighting in your gun", i don't think even with a flatline my A-5 has an effective range of 300ft which isn't nearly sniper worthy... if you could hit me from 300 yds away while compensating for wind velocity and drop while hiding in a tree with a model 98 custom chrono'd at 280fps... you could be king paintball sniper...

sniping in paintball is another word for "too cowardly to actually play so i am going to UBER OUT MY GUN and hide somewhere"... last time i was out we played against this kid who showed up with a ghillie suit and some ridiculous barrel... my team was 90% ex/current military we made it a point to take this kid out every game... we barrel tagged him like twice... he didn't even hear or see us coming in standard issue woodland camo BDUs... we got him every game... and every time he was somewhere well out of range hiding... so when he had to shoot it was close range anyway...

I prefer .223 over .68
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 2:08am
Well what crawled up your.... No wait I'll be nice. I personally have played paintball 2 months, and Im more of a get in close range and light em' up. Anyways If people want to think they are sniping whats the problem. Some of you guys take this way to serious. I know teams that have skilled marksman and can take you out at the maximum range of their guns. When other guys cant but can light you up close. If the M4M had an effective distance of a M82. Would you still consider the M82 a sniper. No you would consider it a slow piece of junk. Anyways you cant compare paintball to real guns and how the military operates. Its not the same thing no matter how bad your military buddies want to flashback. No offence I have great respect for our soldiers, but your statements I dont see the point in comparing paintball to what you marine buddy went thru. You should scale it down. A 200 foot shot is from my understanding a long shot even for a flatline, that is considered a paintball advanced marksman or sniper IMO. Did you catch that IMO? You got one i got one. You cannot say well that wasnt a over a mile shot, thats not sniping. I have seen some people guard a flag from 150 feet away and win the game laying in a bush, just pop, and players go out. Now you still didnt answer my question of knowing where you get shot from all the time 100%.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 7:08am
Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Well what crawled up your.... No wait I'll be nice. I personally have played paintball 2 months, and Im more of a get in close range and light em' up. Anyways If people want to think they are sniping whats the problem. Some of you guys take this way to serious. I know teams that have skilled marksman and can take you out at the maximum range of their guns. When other guys cant but can light you up close. If the M4M had an effective distance of a M82. Would you still consider the M82 a sniper. No you would consider it a slow piece of junk. Anyways you cant compare paintball to real guns and how the military operates. Its not the same thing no matter how bad your military buddies want to flashback. No offence I have great respect for our soldiers, but your statements I dont see the point in comparing paintball to what you marine buddy went thru. You should scale it down. A 200 foot shot is from my understanding a long shot even for a flatline, that is considered a paintball advanced marksman or sniper IMO. Did you catch that IMO? You got one i got one. You cannot say well that wasnt a over a mile shot, thats not sniping. I have seen some people guard a flag from 150 feet away and win the game laying in a bush, just pop, and players go out. Now you still didnt answer my question of knowing where you get shot from all the time 100%.


Mike,
Iit appears that this was addressed to me. Just a side note for the future, if you wish to address a question to someone and your not going to quote thier post please use a simple salutation.

The specific range isn't what's at issue. Miss labeling tactics is.

It appears that you at least read part of my lesson post but didn't full grasp certain parts of it.

For a sniper, any sniper, to be effective they must be able to effectively engage targets from outside effective return fire. By effective I mean at a minimum hit the target 4 out of 5 times. Since all paintball guns for all practical purposes use the same ammunition and have the same muzzle velocity restriction this can't be done.

There are a couple of reasons for sniper engaging from outside effective return fire range. One is that it is extremely demoralizing to be taking casualties without being able to do anything about it. The second is that it affords the sniper the time to take proper shots without the stress of being under direct fire.

The six basic tactics that I outlined when implemented together are mutually supporting in allowing the sniper to be effective in his mission.

As to being able to know were a shot came from 100% of the time, never going to happen. And I didn't say that it would. But I did leave somethings out also. Part of what I left out is the tactics and battle drills of the players that have come under fire.

Before going on I need to reestablish something first, the playing environment. We're talking about recreational woods play. Be it a walkon, private, scenario, or big game that primary terrain being discussed is woods with underbrush. When combined with the limited range and inherent in-ability of the paintballs to penetrate without breaking, we are talking about close quarters battle. If one side is lucky a close ambush. And for the purposes of this sniper dicussion it has to be the close ambush specificly.

If the team taking fire has any idea what thier doing, the battle drill response to a close ambush is to attack though it. In the close quarters environment the lone sniper hasn't got a chance, he'll be quickly overwelmed.

By the same token, if the ambush was laid by a team that had a little time to prepare the reacting team hasn't got a chance. In a basic L shape ambush the group that forms the base of fire will be the focus of the counter attack. The leg of the ambush will hold fire until the target group has started the counter attack and has entered the crossfire/killzone.

And yes I'm taking military tactics. That's because when you boil it down paintball, not matter what flavor you play, is small unit force on force combat. If you think it is anything else either you don't yet have the knowledge and/or experience to recignize it as such, or your deluding yourself. Yes, paintball is a game, but you'll notice that the team that are regularly effective use the aplicable military tactics to succeed.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 8:51am
Crew...Is it not true that some paintball guns shoot further and more accurate than others. Does this not mean that you would be at that demoralizing range? The sniper will not be overwhelmed, if he's concealed and can hit his target. This is why you dont have a sniper by hisself also. You have people strategically placed so if they run up on the sniper. They will be took down easily, this is a defense strategy. For assualt they move in range behind your rushers to take down enemies and keep them down so your team can move up. Yes being a lone sniper is the dumbest thing you can do but, if you have a team that will cover you its possible. Now these differences in our oppinions may come from diffferent types of field and experiences. I dont play at a "field", My friend has 7 acres of woods behind his house. We have built bunkers, foxholes, trenches, and forts. This "field" has been under developement for 6 years. We use just about all of it we can. We dont play with the 3 break rule or whatever. We use autocockers and angels on auto except for me i get a tippmann with an R/T and flatline (my friends back-up). Cant wait to get my A-5. Now I dont know how a regulation field is but i imagine it being smaller, havent been to one. There is hills with plenty of brush on them to conceal you and yes you can pull off some long downhill shots. We will probably start playing reg. fields since were thinking about starting a team to fight against other teams. Maybe our long shots will not be a factor in the reg. fields, though on our field they can be come a factor. E.G. My friend took his angel and wiped out the squad that came by the hills. 5 shots 5kills at around a 130-140ft, good game (mainly because i didnt get shot). Though I could probably ask my friends and find out if the longer shots would factor in at our local fields. Yes my friend has a chronograph so were shooting 270-290.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 2:15pm
i have a Tippmann A-5 w/ 3 position stock, response trigger, intruder foregrip, and 14" J&J ceramic barrel and i use it for sniping but the response trigger is good if i wanna get up close and personal
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 6:29pm
ALRIGHT LISTEN UP LADIES,
This aint no ice cream social. This is a sport. Call it what you want. Sniping, sharpshooting, a pain in the ass. I couldn't really care any less.

Bonno Appetitto.

-ODST
NOW REMEMBER KIDS... FLIES SPREAD DISEASE... SO KEEP YOURS CLOSED !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 6:33pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 October 2004 at 10:57pm
Originally posted by Phear_Mike Phear_Mike wrote:

Crew...Is it not true that some paintball guns shoot further and more accurate than others. Does this not mean that you would be at that demoralizing range? The sniper will not be overwhelmed, if he's concealed and can hit his target. This is why you dont have a sniper by hisself also. You have people strategically placed so if they run up on the sniper. They will be took down easily, this is a defense strategy. For assualt they move in range behind your rushers to take down enemies and keep them down so your team can move up. Yes being a lone sniper is the dumbest thing you can do but, if you have a team that will cover you its possible. Now these differences in our oppinions may come from diffferent types of field and experiences. I dont play at a "field", My friend has 7 acres of woods behind his house. We have built bunkers, foxholes, trenches, and forts. This "field" has been under developement for 6 years. We use just about all of it we can. We dont play with the 3 break rule or whatever. We use autocockers and angels on auto except for me i get a tippmann with an R/T and flatline (my friends back-up). Cant wait to get my A-5. Now I dont know how a regulation field is but i imagine it being smaller, havent been to one. There is hills with plenty of brush on them to conceal you and yes you can pull off some long downhill shots. We will probably start playing reg. fields since were thinking about starting a team to fight against other teams. Maybe our long shots will not be a factor in the reg. fields, though on our field they can be come a factor. E.G. My friend took his angel and wiped out the squad that came by the hills. 5 shots 5kills at around a 130-140ft, good game (mainly because i didnt get shot). Though I could probably ask my friends and find out if the longer shots would factor in at our local fields. Yes my friend has a chronograph so were shooting 270-290.


Mike, for all practical purposes all paintball guns have the same effective range. Be it an Angel, Phantom, Cocker, Mag, or A5 with Flatline. The reason is balistics. All paintballs are basicly the same weight, shape, diameter. All guns have the same muzzle velocity restriction. Since the balls fly through the same air, they decelerate at the same rate as well. What this means is that with these factors all being the same the distance traveled will also be the same. The only difference is with the Flatline. While the back spin does indeed impart an aerodynamic lift which does give it a greater distance traveled, the ball still looses the energy required to break at the same rate as any other ball.

While out of the box some guns are more consistantly accurate it doesn't stay that way. With a little work any gun can be accurized to about the same level. After that it's up to the shooter to have the skills to use it, nothing more.

Remember, effective means hitting your target 4 out of 5 times. With a paintball gun this is roughly at 30-40 yards against a man sized stationary target. A little bit worse that a revolutionary musket. Demoralizing to be hit from this range, no. If the shooter can hit you, you can hit him.

Defense from a fixed position. Move your better shots around to cover kill zones. Cover, concealment, controled fire, cross fire kill zones, basic unit tactic, nothing more.

Better applied as a haisty ambush. Set a base of fire to draw the opposition into the kill zone form with your flank element. Again, basic small unit tactic not sniper tactic.

Having one or more persons laying down suppressive fire while you have a team assault. This is a basic tactic for attacking a fixed position. Best applied in what is called a bounding overwatch. Your troops are in paired teams. One member of the team advances 10-15 yards while the other is laying suppressive fire. Once the advanced member is in position he lays the fire while his teammate advance in front of him. Repeat. Clasic text book tactic, for basic infantry not snipers.

I want to make something clear. This is not opinion. It is combat proven tactics. It doesn't matter what field you play on. Recignize, understand, learn, and execute basic small unit tactics your team will be effective and successful.   

Edited by SR_Crewchief
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 1:34am

Chief have you actually tried this out. To see if the flatline will not extend your range. Ive seen it done, we tested this theory out. Cause I thought the same way. If you think that the flatline outshoots most barrels by 50 or more feet. For the ball to stay up that long even with backspin past other barrels its still moving on enought to break at 10-25ft. further than other guns. My friends tippy will outshoot his angel by 25 foot busting balls his angel cant hit it. You go any further and the tippy quits busting. From the way you talk  25ft can make a difference in this game. So you can be at a demoralizing range, and you can be completely concealed. Don't say well the flatline is too loud and they will hear. I assuming with your back-ground in the military youve heard a m82 shot. I personally havent but I know its louder than crap. It may not be the sniping your used to. The shots may not be as long, and harder to keep hidden. Think about the revolutionary war, America appointed snipers, they gave them the same muskets as everybody else with a scope. Now because you slap a scope on a gun doesnt make it fire further. So they really couldnt be out of range of return fire. HMMM, guess what these were your first snipers. They hardly used any concealment or camo, and deffinately not a ghuille suit. Most of them were hunters and farm boys that could shoot at longer ranges than their buddies. Now because you cant hit 4 out 5 at a certain range doesnt mean the guy next to you cant. Any how what makes you so mad when people say they are going to snipe. Is that a commandment of yours, Thou shalt not say snipe when referring to paintball. Have a nice day.



Edited by Phear_Mike

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 1:52am
      

http://www.webdogradio.us/video/tipclip/s2/2WDR27.wmv

there. no such things as snipers in paintball!

nouseforaname wrote:
oh good, a mech gun with eye covers and a rippoff Jackel frame ... ANS - "Stealing ideas since teh begining"


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 2:34am

in response to that video: i've never seen vapor trails coming off of my .308... i guess its possible since it supersonic.... (most rifle ammunition is... speed of sound sea level is about 1100ft/s.... .308=2700 ft/s, .50BMG is like 2900 ft/s).... and i've never heard of a sniper using vapor trails to track their bullets path.... that sounds kind of far fetched...

aside from that... he basically sums up what we've been saying here.... being stealthy and/or hiding in the back of the field doesn't make you a sniper when you are still only making shots around 100 ft...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 9:30am

http://science.howstuffworks.com/sniper2.htm

My source for the vapor trails comment., and I quote :

Once the shot is taken, the spotter watches the shot to help the sniper readjust his aim or his position in the unlikely event that he misses his target. The way that the spotter watches the shot is fascinating. High velocity, long-range rounds like the kind used in a sniper rifle actually leave a vapor trail as they fly through the air. The spotter can track the shot by watching for that vapor trail. Army Ranger Sniper says, "It just looks like mixed up air. You can see through it, but you see the distortion."

-Tyger

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 2:50pm
Damn right I am layin down the law...

Now stop the pillow talk... quit your yammerin and listen up.

    SNIPING IS POSSIBLE. There... done and done.

      Peace out.

        -ODST
NOW REMEMBER KIDS... FLIES SPREAD DISEASE... SO KEEP YOURS CLOSED !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 3:21pm

thanks tyger... i've never heard that before...

I prefer .223 over .68
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 4:21pm
sniping not possible tell that too me on the field and be proved wrong.

equipment
WS-66 w/ reddot + barrel exs *cough* silencer *cough* tenshion
zeus g2 its got a barrel "exstenshion" too
proteus 2 spectra mask
full ghili
diggis
LBV
2 MRE's
liter of h20
full tool kit
200 paintballs
talkie and throat mic
cant forget the 12 grams and 9 oz
glow sticks and other esentials for night work

my spotter
ghili binocs a pro carbine barrel "exstenshion" talkie and throat mic and about 400 paint some paint grenades trip wire and claymor's MRE's water rough guestimate of his gear.

that equipment will last us for about 12 hours play.  Hopefully we will get up to skirmish USA for D Day this year.

sniping tip of the day - look for movement, then look for shape, identify the target, breath in, breath out and pull the trigger dont jerk it , tagged another one.


Edited by lionheart
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 October 2004 at 7:22pm

there are no such things as silencers...

I prefer .223 over .68
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