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Topic ClosedSnipers?

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SR_Crewchief View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2004 at 7:13am
Since some of you won't listen to someone like Oldsoldier you won't listen to me either, but I'm still going to do this....AGAIN.

First some basics need to be established. The game is paintball and for the purposes of this class it is played in the woods where the terrain dictates that youíll be engaging each other most of the time at between 20 and 25 meters. (In other words close range) It is played most often by 2 opposing sides of roughly equal size. For all intent and purposes this game is modeled on military small unit combat.

Now several you are going "whoo hoo, my kind of sniper country"Öwithout knowing what makes a sniper. Many of you have gone to the dictionary and found a reference saying something to the effect that a sniper is someone who fires from concealment and have used this a your basis for your claim to being one in paintball. That's all well and dandy, except you ignore the rest of the definition.

snip∑er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn p r)n. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Source: The American Heritageģ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now youíll note that this expanded definition is still quite general in it scope, after all anyone who squats behind bush to fire is a sniper which is not the case.

So, since the dictionary has not resolved this we must consult the experts for a better definition of what makes a sniper in our chosen environment. It happens that Iíve had the opportunity to do just that from time to time in my 22 years in the Army.

In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
∑ A superior marksman
∑ Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
∑ The ability to approach the target without being detected
∑ Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
∑ The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
∑ The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice.

Letís look at them one at a time.

A superior marksman

Basically someone whoís shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others.

Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment

This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. Itís still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isnít even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball.

The ability to approach the target without being detected

This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. Itís takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done.

I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush.

Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level


The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails.

Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire

No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to engage the target without revealing your position

Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since itís been demonstrated that you canít effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)



Now just because you canít effectively apply all of the above tactics of what makes an effective sniper doesnít mean that the first 3 listed canít be applied to paintball. Do they make you a sniper? No. But they do give you the ability to setup an effective close ambush. Just a word of advice here, bring along several friends and you might even be effective at it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2004 at 8:23am
crewchief, since I've probably read that exact stuff at a different time, excellent post dude. However, my eyes aren't interested in focusing at this hour, so I'll double check when I remember which end is up.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2004 at 9:34am
I'm tempted to lock this one too, but I want to make sure some of the kiddies read SR's Post before I do.  


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2004 at 10:47pm

SR_Crewchief

 

             Great descriptions on the points and qualities of an effective sniper, hopefully many will read your post and take note. With very few exceptions (there is no absoulute in anything) there is no such creature as a sniper in paintball, there are many marksmen in the sport. Most (not all) who claim to be snipers are usually just successful in 1-person ambushes. The report from a paintball gun is unmistakable and very easily heard. Those who do successfully silence their paintball markers depending on interpretations of federal laws are waiting for the ATF to come knocking on their door and cause a bad light to be shown on this fine sport.  I have been visiting this board for several months now and have seen this topic beaten to death. The players with current or past military experience generally know what a sniper is, those of us that play woods-ball can learn a great deal from those players. They spent at least 4 years of their lives training in a similar environment and they trained to save their lives.

 NolanSniper

 Have some respect for those who have served and are offering information, at 16 you are still very early in your life most of the older players have forgotten more than you have learned. Be considerate of others and learn form the wealth of information that is available to you on this forum.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 August 2004 at 11:29pm

Applauds SR Crewchief's ongoing oration , I have read his reply to snipers countless times , and while I cannot dispute anything he has said , I can only offer this ;

Paintball is a game that glorifies and romaticises the concept of combat (scenarios included ) , and in scenarios there is a place for snipers .

To those that wish to be such a thing , More power to you , it is a Very challenging thing to try,, Some may even be sucessful..

The tactics of light infantry ambush can be applied to paintball , and to those that do , that is undoubtedly as close to sniping as one can come . This is a game ,of romance , and fantasy , the thrill of combat without the dangers of real combat , can similarities be drawn between this and real combat ??  Most definitly !! , but not all the definitions apply . its kind of like saying whos the most effective player in a speedball team , the front, middle ,or backman ? without any of the others , the team is weakened . why not roll them into one and turn them loose in the woods ? He-He, if you did, you'd have a sniper (kinda,,)

I am not Pro , or Con as far as snipers go , let them play sniper, let them learn , and offer suggestions on how not to get shot next time .

Peace out , SR_Crewchief is prolly the most familiar with sniper subjects that I have ever seen on this forum , pay attention to him..

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2004 at 2:22am

LOCK

THIS

THREAD

NOW

[IMG]http://i27.tinypic.com/1538fbc.jpg">
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2004 at 7:54am
^Why? Its civil now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2004 at 8:48am
you'll have to excuse my name when I started I considerd myself a sniper but grew out of it although I still sit beside a tree and tag the opponent about to run for the flag and then run around to the other end of the field and flank the now eliminated player who was trying to cover his buddy who ran for the flag in the first place but I am not a sniper.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 August 2004 at 8:58am
u can only be a sniper if u have a flatline cuz ll toher barrels shoot the same distance
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2004 at 8:13pm
Like SR_Crewchief said, the flatline only helps in the area of flat trajectory, because the paintballs have lost too much velocity going past the standard shooting distance of a barrel to break.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2004 at 9:40pm
i would want to get a flat line but iam not sure i heard there hard to line up and r not really worth it what do all of you think r they really that great

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2004 at 9:44pm

Originally posted by cripple cripple wrote:

i would want to get a flat line but iam not sure i heard there hard to line up and r not really worth it what do all of you think r they really that great

Instead of bumping up this extremely old thread, you couldve found the answer to yer question here

http://www.tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp ?TID=106825&PN=1

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2004 at 7:37am
Heh, this thread...I don't think it will ever die.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2004 at 12:57pm
I respect oldsoldier for the things he's done/been through but not for the way he pushes his opinion on people, why cant all you guys just let people just call themselves snipers if they want to, its not goin to hurt you any, according to you they are all noobsso how effective will they be anyway even if they were right up there with you right? and if it is just a phase that most paintballers go through then you should just let it run its course and leave it alone, it would be better for someone to learn these things by themselves and get some actual experience with both working and crap tactics instead of just beaing told no your silly that isnt going to work

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2004 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by brandizzle brandizzle wrote:

i like boobs




idiot post but so true
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2004 at 3:43pm
oh god ..no mather ( now before someone comes and says my english sucks i say it my self ..FLash your english sucks ) what i play i come to this ewerytime . In same cames thease Snipers are called " Campers" or what ever .I have A5 With scope and Flatline . Heres how i play = i rush go to cover and shoot , cos of the scope i can shoot quite good , but when the enemy goes down to cover  ( meaning i mifired cos its not real gun bullet it can do some realy nasty spins ec )  i rush and shot him to his cover. The fields where we play are about 100m X 40 m .. where in hell u gona hide in there?? I think we do things difrently here in finland and have got it all wrong ...we dont say FU u stupid snipercamper POS . We say oh cool nice hiding . :) AND HAVE FUN maby we just dont have the nerves just to sit in bush...whats the fun in there? ( unles someone forgot some beer in there or something). Paintball is paintball.. REAL guns ARE REAL guns THATS iIT . I respect all equaly . i shoot all equaly :) 
Finland rules :)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2004 at 4:56pm
Enough of this crap. K thnx bye.


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