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Should we be in Iraq

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 12:45pm
So on this veteran issue, let us review the Vietnam era.

National Guard Service was not a guarenteed out of Vietnam, there are 5052 names on the wall of National Guard Members called to active duty.

George Bush flew F-102 Interceptors, a required skill, because of the then Soviet Threat, at anytime he could have been retrained and reassigned to TAC because of manpower/pilot shortages and sent to Vietnam, but because of his "speciality" and NORAD requirements he was not. He did "resign" his commision in order to persue a "political" carreer which under regulations was allowed.

John Kerry was a Naval Officer, and from records and interviews from his commander, and crew, was requested to take the early out of combat, wherein many, myself included did not use the 3 wound/hospitalization easy out. As a fit and healthy individual Kerry would have had to really have been a screwup or his commander "requested" the easy out for reasons known only to the commander, being there was a shortage of combat TO+E personnel allways in Vietnam. And I believe the "Unfit to Command" book, his "recollections" of the time, and his actions since, pretty well give me an idea on why his commander "influanced" the decesion to get Kerry gone from his unit.

As for the veteran status, the draftee/volunteer that spent his years in Germany, Korea, or any one of numerous non Vietnam stations during the Vietnam war is no less a veteran of that time than those who served in Vietnam, and deserve the same honor of service.

I as a Vietnam Vet agree with the author and see Kerry as unfit for command in that he.
1. Violated Regulations and filmed without authorization combat actions that were not first censored or screened for content by Military Intelligence, it was FORBIDDEN to carry cameras or recording devices on combat operations in our unit, so I believe the same regulations would carry in the Navy.
2. Jeopardized his crew in placing them again in a hostile enviorment for personal gain, in that Kerry re-enacted engagements, after the fact. This alone sheds serious doubt in any combat veterans mind as to the sanity of the individual, to again endanger his command for personal gain.
3. Recalls and glorifies fictitious events during his tour, ie the Cambodian incident where US Navy records clearly state his patrol boat was no where near, in fact 55 miles south of the Cambodian Border on that day, that again in a combat veterans eye is suspect.

All in all each has his faults, but an individual in command of the most powerfull war machine the world has ever seen taking on terrorists, rogue regimes, and not having another terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11, has done way more honorable service than a 4 month PBR boat skipper on a personal glorifacation tour. The same skipper that has his portrait prominantly displayed in Communist Vietnams War Museum as an ally to their cause,because of his demonstration against an "unjust" war (while his brothers were still serving and dieing) that alone gives my vote to ANYONE BUT KERRY.


Edited by oldsoldier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Paint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 1:04pm
I'm jumping in here, but here goes.

-   I believe (I have no proof though) that Saddam Hussein would have eventually tried to attck the US. There was a special on tv about a cannon he had made that could launch a projectile hundreds of miles, and it was built up the side of a huge hill. Given another 15-20 years, he would probaly have sponsored some attack.

-  If Clinton would have gone over to wherever Bin Laden was in his term and had attacked, people would be doing the same thing. "You're wasting American lives and money".  He would have maybe caught Bin Laden and prevented 9-11, but people would say that he had no proof he was going to attack. Like there is no proof Saddam would have sponsored an attack.  Its a lose-lose situation. Now people are saying he should have gone over there.

-   we are nearing the time to leave, i believe. We need to set up a stable government and give them a time span to get their governmevt running. TYo work towards world happiness "to please people" we should, as one of the oldest governments (not nation, but government) be an example and fight for freedom worldwide.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 1:29pm
 that cannon you was talking about Jim paint was suppose to be the biggest cannon in the world cause no one had beaten Hitlers Paris gun and railroad guns, and it was pointed toward Saudi Arabia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 1:31pm
Why would saddam attack america, thats the stupidest thing ever. Maybe im totally wrong, im certainly no tactician, but it seems to me that after the big kid on the block takes an interest and beats the snot out of you, the last thing you want to to is shoot him in the ass with a pellet gun later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Paint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by Enos Shenk Enos Shenk wrote:

Why would saddam attack america, thats the stupidest thing ever. Maybe im totally wrong, im certainly no tactician, but it seems to me that after the big kid on the block takes an interest and beats the snot out of you, the last thing you want to to is shoot him in the ass with a pellet gun later.


lol, good comparison
but i mean he would do it secretly, i mean like pay an organization. looking at his temples it didnt look like his cash was an issue. He pays another terrorist group for training, weapons, and then some of them become suicide bombers


Edited by Jim Paint



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ruff Neck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:05pm
hecks ya we should!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welcome guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:16pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

not having another terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/

January 7, 2002 Posted: 1:07 PM

Tampa pilot voiced support for bin Laden

Charles J. Bishop, who took the plane on an unauthorized flight across Tampa Bay, died at the scene of Saturday's crash into the 42-story Bank of America Plaza building.
This is one example there where many more.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jim Paint Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:18pm
Originally posted by welcome guest welcome guest wrote:

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

not having another terrorist attack on our soil since 9/11

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/06/tampa.crash/

January 7, 2002 Posted: 1:07 PM

Tampa pilot voiced support for bin Laden

Charles J. Bishop, who took the plane on an unauthorized flight across Tampa Bay, died at the scene of Saturday's crash into the 42-story Bank of America Plaza building.
This is one example there where many more.



a cesna...  thats not much damage



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:24pm
Major significant terrorist attack involving loss of innocent lives....any wacko with any cause can do any thing or claim anything.....but to plan, execute and do damage on the scale of OK City or 9/11, that is a significant Terrorist Attack, and NONE have happened.

I love those who nit-pik, some crazy with a gun yells Bin-Ladens name and robs a bank, or a youth with predetermined physcological problems is allowed to fly a plane nad yells Bin-Laden and flies into a building guess we blame Bush for not protecting us for every wacko lose on our streets.

Edited by oldsoldier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:30pm
Once you all admit that for no other reason than you "hate" the president for whatever reason, and will rationalize anything for your cause illregardless of fact, credense or example, then it is time to look inot the mirror and ask yourself when something tragic does happen again.....
Do we blame those who tried and were stopped, or blame those who stopped those who tried.

Even your man Kerry announced he would have gone to war against Iraq illregardless of WMD claims......so the point of the hate Bush exercise is?

Oh by the way funny how Las Vegas Casino owners fear US trial attorneys more than terrorists and will not view the tapes, fearing the lawsuits after the attack than tha attack itself, and John Edwards is by proffession a Trial Lawyer who made his millions on ambulance chasing lawsuits .....makes you think doesn't it, and if you don't you should.

Remmember got to flush twice to clear the John's

Edited by oldsoldier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welcome guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:36pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Major significant terrorist attack involving loss of innocent lives....any wacko with any cause can do any thing or claim anything.....but to plan, execute and do damage on the scale of OK City or 9/11, that is a significant Terrorist Attack, and NONE have happened.

I love those who nit-pik some crazy with a gun yells Bin-Ladens name and robs a bank, or a youth with predetermined physcological problems is allowed to fly a plane nad yells Bin-Laden and flies into a building guess we blame Bush for not protecting us for every wacko lose on our streets.

Its a breakdown of defense on our soil in the most heighten time of security. The pilot took a unauthorized flight across Tampa Fl.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/07/09/int8.htm

Ronald Reagan's funeral

Our President was there?

Mr Fletcher's plane remained unidentified for several critical minutes and penetrated deeply into the no-fly zone, exposing a significant security breakdown.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 3:54pm
So it is all his fault personally...not the delegated authorities down the chain of command....get real there troop......AGAIN SIGNIFICANT TERRORIST ATTACK WITH SIGNIFICANY LOSS OF LIFE.....not miscommunication problems, wackos with mental conditions in isolated incidents....REAL SIGNIFICANT ATTACKS...NONE
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 4:05pm
Think bush will get re elected?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

So it is all his fault personally...not the delegated authorities down the chain of command....get real there troop......AGAIN SIGNIFICANT TERRORIST ATTACK WITH SIGNIFICANY LOSS OF LIFE.....not miscommunication problems, wackos with mental conditions in isolated incidents....REAL SIGNIFICANT ATTACKS...NONE

I don't think we can count it both ways.

If Bush gets a pass on the security violations (because of delegated authorities), then Bush doesn't get the credit for no major attacks either.

If Bush gets credit for no major incidents, he also has to take the blame for the Cessna situation.

We have to pick one.  Either the Pres is responsible, or he isn't.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welcome guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 5:13pm

Its a breakdown of defense

significant security breakdown

Topic: Should we be in Iraq

First line of defense is to protect your base?

I did not say Its Bush Admin. fault I pointed out two separate recurring issue. No matter who will be our next President we should be concerned about the USA first and foremost?

At Ronald Reagan's funeral Bush was present there should of been more security?

act of terrorism, terrorism, terrorist act - the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear
coup de main, surprise attack - an attack without warning

Thousands die by drive-by shootings each year.

DC snipers



Edited by welcome guest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 5:19pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:


Even your man Kerry announced he would have gone to war against Iraq illregardless of WMD claims......so the point of the hate Bush exercise is?


Id just like to point out that im not voting for kerry either. This election is a truly lose-lose situation.

Ill be voting for bugs bunny again this year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 5:55pm
One of the marks of a true leader is being a leader. Bush went to President Reagans funeral low key, stood among the masses and did not turn the event into a dog and pony security show, shows respect for the family and the nation.
He has visited the troops in the combat zone, as his father did in 91. Never saw Clinton in Kosovo now did we, or Vietnam for that matter.......

Showing fear to an enemy is not the mark of a leader, standing up front, leading the charge, leading instead of pushing is the mark of a leader. And making the enemy fear you is the true mark of a leader, ask Momar Quadaffi if he feared Bush after the invasion of Afganistan and Iraq. No previous administration since Teddy Roosevelt has had the world rethinking their position on the US, Teddy with the "Big Stick" and President Bush with the intestinal fortatude to act instead of talk.

As for protecting our homeland, how? Immagration Laws routinely forgotten, a court system that punishes the victims more than the criminals, gratoitous violence in media as the norm, no moral base anymore...where do we stop, and how do we again regain control of the borders as well as our streets.

Criminal actions against our populace are not the responsibility of the President, it is the Department of Justice, who have their hands tied by the courts and trial lawyers who routinely punish the victims, over the violator, whose rights must be protected even if it entails dragging the innocent victim (who has no Miranda Rights in the Trial Process)through the mud...attend one rape trial and observe...only then will you understand.

Our front line is our borders, control immagration, control illegals, throw out the visa violators, make those who cross our borders responsible for their actions, not the US taxpayer. Once the world sees we are serious, and again fears our wrath, then and only then will we be left in peace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 6:59pm
 I didnt know bush went to see troops in iraq
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2004 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Bush went to President Reagans funeral low key, stood among the masses and did not turn the event into a dog and pony security show, shows respect for the family and the nation.


Id also like to voice my opinion that the president is a politician. Politicians do whatever it takes to look good, personal character and feelings aside.

I didnt have a problem with Bush until iraq. I thought he did a good job handling 9/11 and afghanistan. I had a problem with the absolutely ludicrous security measures laid on after 9/11 like the patriot act and total information awareness, but that cant really be laid on the president. I started to have a problem after he pushed so hard for what i viewed as an unprovoked attack on another nation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WUNgUN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 12:40pm
I have to interject about the two things that keep coming up in the Kerry v. President Bush saga. While I would be more apt to vote for President Bush if it came down to it (I will not though), I want to add some thoughts to the discussion. There is absolutely no way we can compare their military records. President Bush "served" like many other wealthy young men during the time and used the options at his disposal not to go to Vietnam and our Vice President has said that he "was busy". As the son of a Vietnam veteran and a "former" United States Marine, I find this offensive to say the least. However, I also feel as if Sen. Kerry joined the Navy as a resume builder. He has every intention of being as much like JFK as possible. The criticism and scrutiny that he is receiving is as much his own fault as anyone's. He chose to run on his service record, hence all the debate and discussion surrounding it. I have read a few excerpts from a couple of his fitness reports and they were not flattering to the say the very least. As far the eyewitness accounts, they are subjective depending on "whose side" one is one. As far as his Bronze Star, I have heard that almost all Officers serving in Vietnam received either a Bronze or Silver Star irregardless of their actions. I can remember in the Marine Corps we called the Navy Commendation Medal the Officer Good Conduct Medal because they generally received them at about their four-year mark for some pretty asinine "achievements". Oh well...
Not that I really care at this point, but Sen. Kerry voted for the War in Iraq. He also used very specific language as did many of Democratic Senators as to what they expected with their support and much of it never happened. May seem like splitting hairs, but you can not reduce whether or not he supported the War to a "yes or no" answer like the conservative media is trying to do at this point.

Edited by WUNgUN
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