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Should we be in Iraq

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Dayton View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 12:25pm
 this convo is goin well
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Homer J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by kwkmrorange kwkmrorange wrote:


One thing I think would be very funny though would be if Saddam was proven not guilty and was therfor a free man. If he went back to Iraq ran for president and won. Because the U.S. would have no legal way of stopping him.


I think the chances of Saddam being found not guilty by an Iraqi court are about the same as Michael Jackson's chances of working at an all-boys' grade school.


Regardless he'll probably have his citizenship revoked.

Edited by Homer J
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 1:40pm
It is amazing how the media tends to forget when thier aganda is at stake. The current agenda is blame Bush for all faults, no matter who agreed with him previously. If we remmember correctly the same individuals acusing him, (and there are thousands of media sound bites to the fact Kerry, Edwards, and many of the Liberal Dem crowd) were the same individuals agreeing with him before the war on Saddam's threat to the world at large. Now it is not a correct position so the flip flop selective memory begins.

The basic human rights issue on the war is simple, the first mass grave uncovered justified the war, unless you believe that Iraqi human life is worth less than American.

And the overriding question still loomes with no answer. 1992 Saddam used chemical munitions on the Northern Kurds after Gulf War one, and after 1447 UN Resolutions, along with an agreed cease fire agreement, there is still no documentation, and or evidense of the status of known stocks as of Feb 91 of chemical weapons, production facilities, or delivery systems, he did use them after that date in violation of the 1991 cease fire agreement, and NOTHING was done by the UN to enforce the Resolutions and Cease Fire Agreement.

So all those that blindly believe that a despotic leader who sacrificed his own people for his personal power, and who in the past used wars of agression and chemical weapons (Iran War 1980's and 1992 Kurdish Uprising) was not developing and storing more, also believes in the tooth fairey, Shangra-La, pots of gold at end of rainbows, and Santa Clause, and we can not find them either.

As for the oil...where are the tankers lined up at our docks, the massive undertaking of drilling and transport, the huge storage facilities, and the $0.79 a gallon fuel prices, must be stored at the North Pole with another ruthless monopolistic individual, there is a plot you know.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Homer J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 1:48pm
And another question I hear a lot:
"Why didn't we invade North Korea?"

You think the casualties we've suffered in over a year are a lot? I can guarantee that that would be nothing compared to the casualties we'd suffer in the first month or even week of a land invasion of North Korea. Kim Jong Il has HUGE support in North Korea and a large, well-equipped, highly trained and disciplined, highly loyal, modern military.

There's also a chance they would be backed either openly or covertly, financially, militarily, or otherwise, by China. In my opinion(not that it matters; I don't know too much in this matter), any war with today's North Korea, especially if China supported them, wouldn't end until we were on the defensive on our own shores. We wouldn't beat the North Koreans on their own turf. If they invaded we probably would (not saying we should wait to be invaded- we learned from that mistake twice so far).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 1:53pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

...The current agenda is blame Bush for all faults, no matter who agreed with him previously. If we remmember correctly the same individuals acusing him, (and there are thousands of media sound bites to the fact Kerry, Edwards, and many of the Liberal Dem crowd) were the same individuals agreeing with him before the war on Saddam's threat to the world at large.

That isn't quite fair the Kerry/Edwards.

Of all the people in elected office, the President has the MOST information.  Individual Senators have LESS information than the President.  Mostly their decisions are based on information that they get from the White House.

What Kerry/Edwards have been saying (unless I am misinformed) is that they voted for the war BASED ON THE INFORMATION GIVEN TO THEM (by the White House).  They are saying that had they known then what they know now, they would not have voted for the war.

That does not strike me as an inconsistent position.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DracoPlasm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 1:55pm
No we shouldent be in iraq we shoulda just bombed the whole freakin country and be done with it and let a message to all those other countries not to bomb us!!!....arent we lucky im not president?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 2:01pm

Uhh...  those other countries didn't bomb us.  Heck, no country has ever bombed us.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WUNgUN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Uhh...  those other countries didn't bomb us.  Heck, no country has ever bombed us.


 


Do we still own Hawaii?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 2:28pm
Lets hand it to our education system, when they support an agenda, they tend to rewrite history.....

Clark Kent wrote:
Uhh... those other countries didn't bomb us. Heck, no country has ever bombed us.

Time to get away from the MTV and possibly read up on some American History....Can You say Pearl Harbor? Can You say Japanese? Can you look up the Japanese Balloon firebombs along the American NorthWest in 1945.

The point to the exercise is, the Islamic Fundimentalist Movement has sworn to DESTROY america, even before all the Iraq issues. TERRORISTS are funded and need a base for logistical support, by unfortuanately nations UNFREINDLY to the United States and our way of Life.

We could walk out of Iraq tomorrow, and sometime, somewhere, an terrorist supported by Iraq, or another regime will attack americans, kill american, and destroy our way of life, and then the same crowd will blame Bush for doing NOTHING to protect them. Right now leaders of foriegn governments have to make a choice not having had to be made before. DO not support terrorist's in their homelands and still be in power, or support a terrorist and have Marines knocking down the front door to your palace, pretty simplified answer to the question of supporting terrorists, one not offered by previous administrations.

Again would you rather fight a terrorist on his home turf, or in your backyard....again another simple answer to that question.

Oh and on the Kerry/Edwards breifings, the NSA gives the same brief to members of Congress, and the appropiate commitees, if the congressman cares to attend.






Edited by oldsoldier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 2:47pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Clark Kent wrote:
Uhh... those other countries didn't bomb us. Heck, no country has ever bombed us.

Brain fart acknowledged.   :)

But "those other countries" still didn't bomb us.  Other than WWII and Revolutionary War, I do not believe US non-embassy soil has ever been bombed by agents of a foreign country.

Quote The point to the exercise is, the Islamic Fundimentalist Movement has sworn to DESTROY america, even before all the Iraq issues. TERRORISTS are funded and need a base for logistical support, by unfortuanately nations UNFREINDLY to the United States and our way of Life.

Was this responding to something I said?  If so, I am lost.  Same for most of the rest of the post.

Quote Oh and on the Kerry/Edwards breifings, the NSA gives the same brief to members of Congress, and the appropiate commitees, if the congressman cares to attend.

Don't disagree.  And more information has now come to light since those briefings.  I reiterate my point - Kerry/Edwards are not being inconsistent when they say that they would have voted differently had they had more/better information.

They may be Monday-morning quarterbacking, but not inconsistent.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 3:01pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Lets hand it to our education system, when they support an agenda, they tend to rewrite history.....

...

Time to get away from the MTV ...

Were these insults really necessary?

And which agenda am I allegedly supporting?

 

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Ahhh, crooked demo politicians.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 98God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 4:26pm
we did what we needed too...we need to confront a threat like North Korea
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 5:27pm
No insults observations.....reading through many of these forums basic history facts are either forgotten or unknown by many. History teaches one thing....those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it.

We Americans fail sometimes to remmember what got us to where we are today. Many leaders as well as nations made decesions that today they regret, yet we forget.

America goes to war for few reasons, and in all her wars there are those who feel it unjust or wrong, from the Civil War Draft Riots, to the Vietnam Protests, to todays protests, we as Americans do what we need to do to ensure our way of life.

We were attacked by those bent on the destruction of our way of life. In 1941 we choose to ignore the growing threat of German and Japanese expansion, and paid for that dearly. On 9/11 we again were attacked by individuals we saw as no direct threat to us here in America. And there are those still out there waiting, waiting for the right time to again bring death upon America. Contrary to all our good intentions around the world, the aid and comfort we provide to those less fortunant, there are those who look upon us as evil, yet they are the bearers of evil, who violate human rights, who see genocide and torture as a way of life, who do not value human life as we do.

Ayatolla Komainni after the Iranian revolt of 1979 stated "Fear not the American not in his home, we can kill as many as we please and fear not his wrathe, but we must fear the American in his home for he will fight to protect that home with all his faith, and that we must avoid." A simple statement where even then religous zealots understood, now they do not fear us and see us as weak, and are beginning the attacks on our home, and now we must fear our own people who refuse to see that as the new way of the world. We are no longer safe hiding behind our oceans, the dragon has, and can again reach us here in our home. And if we again weaken and lose resolve, the next attack may kill more and do more, and at that time will we blame those who tried, yet were stopped, or those who stopped those who tried. That is the new moral question each american must ask.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 5:36pm

So what do you suggest that we do?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 6:52pm
Pretty simple concept...we protect our way of life by letting the world know that we will, by any means neccesary ensure the survival of our nation, the safety of our people, and the preservation of our way of life.

The leaders of these lands who saw that supporting terrorist causes was infact a defacto war against america have learned that the soft american can and will bite if pushed far enough. From the Taliban, to Saddam, to Momar Quadaffi, to many others, they have had to make decesions now that with previous administrations they did not have to. They do prefere being alive and in power and in favor of the US, instead of american smart bombs or Marines entering their palace windows. And once the support and financial networks of the terrorist disappear, and he has no freindly place to hide, then and only then can we take the matter under our control and eliminate the threat to ourselves and the world.

The war in Iraq was the second step in a long process to destroy the infastructure, and destroy the support networks of the terrorist organizations. Once we let the rogue nations of the world know that we will blame them as well as the terrorist for actions against America, and swift and determined action will be taken, then and only then will the leaders of these nations, stop and think of what demons they will release from the bottle if they show any percieved support for the terrorist.

If we abandon Iraq as we did Vietnam, the terrorist organizations will fill the void we left and again control the Iraqi peoples and land. Repeating the mistake we made in Vietnam, and again show the world we are weak and unable to forfill our commitments to our freinds, and to those we support and help. Making the next target on the terrorist agenda that much easier for them. But if we show the fortitude and aggressively persue the terrorist and keep the initiative with us, it is they who will fear the next strike, not us. It took four long years to defeat Germany and Japan, both who had zealots willing to die for their cause, and we americans did all we could to make that happen for them, as we should here also.

Again who will will blame, those who tried but are stopped, or those who stopped those who tried. History will repeat if we as Americans do not learn from our past mistakes, and the cost today is to high too not learn.

Edited by oldsoldier
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boomstick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 6:54pm
Yeah we should be. How else are we going to Find weapons of mass destruction? By just sitting here and asking people. i think not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cadet_sergeant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 7:14pm
im getting tired of spending U.S. dollars on other coutries, i really dont care if iraq has oil or not they (the people of iraq) should have takin full controle of there country by now im sure alot of people know someone over in the war, i personaly have a cousin over there. its just stupid, get our soldiers back and tell the people of iraq if they dont handle things there country next time it will be blown sky high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 8:17pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

It is amazing how the media tends to forget when thier aganda is at stake. The current agenda is blame Bush for all faults, no matter who agreed with him previously. If we remmember correctly the same individuals acusing him, (and there are thousands of media sound bites to the fact Kerry, Edwards, and many of the Liberal Dem crowd) were the same individuals agreeing with him before the war on Saddam's threat to the world at large. Now it is not a correct position so the flip flop selective memory begins.

No, they agreed when they were led to believe that:

a.  There were W.M.D.'s

b.  Iraq was responsible for 911.  (let us not flip-flop this into an issue of liberation.)

c.  Iraq had nukes.

The basic human rights issue on the war is simple, the first mass grave uncovered justified the war, unless you believe that Iraqi human life is worth less than American.

Unless you are Sudanese who is currently being buried in a mass grave that is sans oil.

And the overriding question still loomes with no answer. 1992 Saddam used chemical munitions on the Northern Kurds after Gulf War one, and after 1447 UN Resolutions, along with an agreed cease fire agreement, there is still no documentation, and or evidense of the status of known stocks as of Feb 91 of chemical weapons, production facilities, or delivery systems, he did use them after that date in violation of the 1991 cease fire agreement, and NOTHING was done by the UN to enforce the Resolutions and Cease Fire Agreement.

As opposed to Libya who had a real 20 tons of mustard gas, a facility to make it and last, but not least, was responsible for blowing up Pan-Am flight 103 over Lockerbie Scotland (terrorism?)  Then again Libya is not sitting on the second largest oil reserve in the world just behind Saudia Arabia's largest oil reserve who had G.W. Bush's dad in their employ at the time and had 15 of the 19, 911 attackers.

So all those that blindly believe that a despotic leader who sacrificed his own people for his personal power, and who in the past used wars of agression and chemical weapons (Iran War 1980's and 1992 Kurdish Uprising) was not developing and storing more, also believes in the tooth fairey, Shangra-La, pots of gold at end of rainbows, and Santa Clause, and we can not find them either.

Perhaps the tooth fairy has all of those W.M.D.'s squirreled away with G.W. Bush's military records.

As for the oil...where are the tankers lined up at our docks, the massive undertaking of drilling and transport, the huge storage facilities, and the $0.79 a gallon fuel prices, must be stored at the North Pole with another ruthless monopolistic individual, there is a plot you know.....

Perhaps Halliburton is not passing along the savings while overcharging the U.S. military for fuel and failing to provide hot meals for troops at the front. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2004 at 10:01pm

  Do you really think the Media is tryin to make Bush look bad for goin to iraq i mean , it was a bold move to invade but we got suddam and i agree we would leave but what about the Iraqies Suddam would get out some how is we left and were back wit the same problem again. Homer J i agree if we invaded north Korea the death would have been in the 1,000 during the invation. I dont think we are stupid enough to invade anyways we have been there before.

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