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Should we be in Iraq

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Badsmitty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 3:11pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Once you all admit that for no other reason than you "hate" the president for whatever reason, and will rationalize anything for your cause illregardless of fact, credense or example, then it is time to look inot the mirror and ask yourself when something tragic does happen again.....
Do we blame those who tried and were stopped, or blame those who stopped those who tried.

Even your man Kerry announced he would have gone to war against Iraq illregardless of WMD claims......so the point of the hate Bush exercise is?

Oh by the way funny how Las Vegas Casino owners fear US trial attorneys more than terrorists and will not view the tapes, fearing the lawsuits after the attack than tha attack itself, and John Edwards is by proffession a Trial Lawyer who made his millions on ambulance chasing lawsuits .....makes you think doesn't it, and if you don't you should.

Remmember got to flush twice to clear the John's

Those poor casino owners.  Now even the Mob is afraid of trial lawyers.  There's room for you before the mirror of blind ideology also.  I'll share my spot with you. 



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oldsoldier View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 4:05pm
Not blind...just tired of seeing all the accusations and retoric against a man doing his job the best he can, based on the information he is provided. Attacks on his charactor, eduacation, intelligence, and other than that no substance issues from the opposition party other than Bush is wrong.

Where are the tankers lined up off the east coast for all this oil we went to war for?

OK no WMD's yet (but the answer to the question of where are they or where did they go has not yet been answered, he had em, had to account for em by the Cease Fire Agreement and 1447 UN resolutions) but to remove a despot who uses genocide on his own people, and there are those who think that is wrong?

Veteran status? He served, did his time, easy outed for a political career per regulations, and like every other Vietnam veteran whether in Vietnam or any other location during the war...He served, during a time of war, and 5052 National Guard names are on the wall, NG or RES service during Vietnam was NOT a guarentee out of war service,
Yet Kerry, who used the Navy strictly as a personal resume gain, and was requested by his commander to take the "easy out" (take a look at his fitness reports excerpts, now there is some interesting reading) of Vietnam under questionable circumstances (notice he is not fighting the accuations, just besmerching the accusers) also Navy records placed his patrol boat 55miles SE of the Cambodian Border on that day in question when Kerry stated he was in Cambodia doing whatever. And to jeorpardize his crew in a hostile fire zone, for a re-enactment for personal gain...that says a lot in itself on the mans charactor. Now he can jeorpardize a nation for his personal gain...

Flush twice folks, got to clear the JOHN's.

Stop the Edwards/Kerry/Heinz Cartel....no WAR for Ketchup
watch out Mexico....cheap tomatoes...........

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Badsmitty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 4:47pm

So Bush's easy out for political gain is the better part of valor compared to Kerry's service in combat for personal resume gain?  

As for the oil, like I said before, Halliburton isn't passing the savings on to us.  They are busy not getting the hot meals to the front lines and overcharging the military for fuel.

And as for the names on the wall, one is for a man who went in Bush's stead, one for Cheney, one for Karl Rove, one for Bill O'reilly, one for Bill Clinton, one for Rush Limbaugh, one for Mike Savage, one for Glenn Beck, and the beat goes on da da dum de dum dum...   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 4:49pm

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

Not blind...just tired of seeing all the accusations and retoric against a man doing his job the best he can, based on the information he is provided. Attacks on his charactor, eduacation, intelligence, and other than that no substance issues from the opposition party other than Bush is wrong.

Hrmph.

Your statement can be applied equally to any politician and his/her opponents, current, past or future.  Bush is hardly unique in this regard.

Not to mention, of course, that there are plenty of very substantive bases for attacks upon our President.

While plenty of unfair attacks have been levied against our President, I must say that you are wrong, and to the extent that you aren't wrong, your argument applies equally to all other Presidents, past and future.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Badsmitty Badsmitty wrote:

As for the oil, like I said before, Halliburton isn't passing the savings on to us.  They are busy not getting the hot meals to the front lines and overcharging the military for fuel.

I just want to make sure I fully understand this argument.  Correct me if I am wrong:

1.  Bush and/or Cheney are buddy-buddy with various top corporate execs, including Halliburton.

2.  US invades Iraq.

3.  US awards local supply contracts to Halliburton.

4.  Halliburton overcharges.

So far so good, but this is where I get shaky:  Conclusion - the war was instigated for the purpose of awarding contracts to Halliburton et. al, so that they could overcharge?

Is that what you are saying?

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 5:21pm
Badsmitty, Ok here is the challenge...it is January 5th 2005, John Kerry is elected apply your same logic to Kerry, and what are his faults, his failures, his complicity, his political errors?

He spouts on keeping jobs in america yet over 70% of Heinz production is overseas.......double standard is Heinz the Haliburton of Food Service?

There are questions on his war service, yet unanswered by him, yet there are Navy records, and personal accounts readily available on the credense and credibility of his war record. His personnel jacket with Officer Fitness Report is available, not an officer I would care to serve under.

And all I have to say on the Vietnam service and one earned by my personal service in Vietnam is, ANY SERVICE MEMBER who served from 1962-1974 is considered a Vietnam Era Veteran, be it in country, or in any location while in uniform, National Guard, Reservist, whoever, the point is THEY SERVED in whatever capacity, and each one be it Medal of Honor winner, or a cook who did his three years at Ft Dix, NJ, is no more or less honorable than any of his his brothers or sisters who served in that time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Badsmitty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Badsmitty Badsmitty wrote:

As for the oil, like I said before, Halliburton isn't passing the savings on to us.  They are busy not getting the hot meals to the front lines and overcharging the military for fuel.

I just want to make sure I fully understand this argument.  Correct me if I am wrong:

1.  Bush and/or Cheney are buddy-buddy with various top corporate execs, including Halliburton.

2.  US invades Iraq.

3.  US awards local supply contracts to Halliburton.

4.  Halliburton overcharges.

So far so good, but this is where I get shaky:  Conclusion - the war was instigated for the purpose of awarding contracts to Halliburton et. al, so that they could overcharge?

Is that what you are saying?

 

What I am saying is that Halliburton was awarded no-bid contracts for their work in Iraq.  That means that the job automatically went to them instead of other companies getting the chance to outbid Halliburton for the job.  That would be like if your car broke down and I was the only mechanic who was allowed to work on it and I could charge you whatever I wanted to.  Conservatives scream about breaking up unions in order to allow free enterprise, then pull this kind of stunt. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WebHalex Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 August 2004 at 8:27pm
snap shooting is not helpful at war
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 12:54pm
Personally, I think that a President (or candidate)'s past shouldn't be AS MUCH of an issue in an election. Yes it'd be good to know if the person in question is a permanent drug addict, but..

I hardly think that either Bush or Kerry just decided to do whatever they did so that after several decades they'd look better.

As for my opinion, I think Bush is in an unfair position. If he hadn't gone to Iraq and Saddam had started using chemical/nuclear weapons on us or his neighbors again, everyone would get on his case for not doing anything. And the same people that accuse him of being stupid and oil-driven for only going after Iraq would most definitely accuse him of much worse things if he went after North Korea or Iran and a bunch of innocents were nuked.

Remember this, people: The position of America's leader is NOT a game. You don't want to elect someone because you don't like a decision the other guy made, especially if that decision was made on the best available intelligence at the time, and was made to protect our nation. I don't like the fact that we're in Iraq either, but I do think that at the time, it was necessary to go in based on the intelligence we had. President Bush is, in fact, preparing to pull troops out as soon as possible, or hasn't anyone else been paying attention to the news about the new government?

These things take time. Let the man do his job.
Is God real? You'll find out when you die.

Okay, I don't have a clever signature zinger. So sue me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Poetvice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 1:37pm
 
( See article below pictures.)

Pictures you won't see on NBC or 60 Minutes!















This Iraqi jet, an advanced Russian MiG-25 Foxbat, was found buried in the sand
after an informant tipped off
U.S. troops.

The MiG was dug out of a massive sand dune near the Al Taqqadum airfield by
U.S. Air Force recovery teams. The MiG was reportedly one of over two dozen
Iraqi jets buried in the sand, like hidden treasure,
waiting to be recovered at a
later date. Contrary to what some in the major media have reported, not all the
jets found were from the Gulf War era.
The Russian-made MiG-25 Foxbat being
recovered by
U.S. Air Force troops in the photos is an advanced reconnaissance
version never before seen in the West and is equipped with sophisticated
electronic warfare devices.


U.S. Air Force recovery teams had to use large earth-moving equipment to
uncover the MiG, which is over 70 feet long and weighs nearly 25 tons.


The Foxbat is known to be one of
Iraq's top jet fighters. The advanced electronic
reconnaissance version found by the
U.S. Air Force is currently in service with the
Russian air force. The MiG is capable of flying at speeds of over
2,000 miles an hour,
or
three times the speed of sound, and at altitudes of over 75,000 feet.

The recovery of the advanced MiG fighter is considered to be an intelligence
coup by the
U.S. Air Force.. The Foxbat may also be equipped with advanced
Russian- and French-made electronics that were sold to
Iraq during the 1990s
in violation of a U..N. ban on arms sales to
Baghdad.

The buried aircraft at Al Taqqadum were covered in camouflage netting, sealed
and, in many cases, had their wings removed before being buried more than 10

feet beneath the Iraqi desert.

X Marks the Spot


The discovery of the buried Iraqi jet fighters illustrates the problem faced by !
U.S. inspection teams searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is
larger in size than California, and the massive deserts south and west of
Baghdad were used by Saddam Hussein to hide weapons during the first Gulf
war.


U.S. intelligence sources have already uncovered several mass grave
burial sites in the open deserts with an estimated 10,000 dead hidden
there. In addition,  
Iraq previously hid SCUD missiles, chemical weapons
and biological warheads by burying them under the desert sand.


U.N. inspection teams found the weapons in the early 1990s after
detailed information of the exact locations was obtained.


Top
U.S. weapons inspector Dr. David Kay is known to favor human
intelligence as the primary means to
find Iraq's hidden treasure trove of
weapons and secrets.


While there are rumors of Iraqi chemical and biological weapons being
shipped to nearby
Syria, the weapons may very well still remain inside
Iraq buried under the vast desert wastelands.

Some critics of the Bush administration have claimed that the inability
of
U.S. forces to uncover weapons of mass destruction is proof that
the president misled the nation into the war with
Iraq.

However, in recent days the critics have fallen silent as word quietly
leaked from
Iraq that major discoveries have already been made and
are now being documented completely. Bush administration officials
are keeping any such discoveries secret for the moment. For our
nation's sake, pray they will find something to close the mouth of all
his critics before election day.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 1:39pm

Originally posted by Badsmitty Badsmitty wrote:

What I am saying is that Halliburton was awarded no-bid contracts for their work in Iraq.  That means that the job automatically went to them instead of other companies getting the chance to outbid Halliburton for the job.  That would be like if your car broke down and I was the only mechanic who was allowed to work on it and I could charge you whatever I wanted to.  Conservatives scream about breaking up unions in order to allow free enterprise, then pull this kind of stunt. 

I hate to sidetrack this thread too much, but...

Before making judgements on how/why Halliburton was picked, shouldn't do examine how often similar no-bid contracts are awarded by state and federal government entities?  I suspect you will find that it isn't that uncommon.  In this case, of course, there is a very limited pool of legitimate bidders anyway.

I (obviously) can't rule out that Bush/Cheney went out of their way to award contracts to Halliburton for old times' sake, but the available evidence does NOT, TMK, support that conclusion.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 5:10pm
Remmember if and when Kerry authorizes the invasion of Mexico for cheap tomatoes to feed the Heinz ketchup cartell, and to make heinz the sole owner of mexican tomatoes, that he is only looking out for the 28% of american Heinz workers( the other 72% are foreign workers overseas but like he says real jobs for real americans)

No War for Ketchup- Stop the Hienz/Kerry Cartell.

Flush twice to get both the John's
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welcome guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 6:12pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Originally posted by Badsmitty Badsmitty wrote:

What I am saying is that Halliburton was awarded no-bid contracts for their work in Iraq.  That means that the job automatically went to them instead of other companies getting the chance to outbid Halliburton for the job.  That would be like if your car broke down and I was the only mechanic who was allowed to work on it and I could charge you whatever I wanted to.  Conservatives scream about breaking up unions in order to allow free enterprise, then pull this kind of stunt. 

I hate to sidetrack this thread too much, but...

Before making judgements on how/why Halliburton was picked, shouldn't do examine how often similar no-bid contracts are awarded by state and federal government entities? Connecticut Gov. John G. Rowland resigned that he violated ethics laws and had been encouraged to quit. I suspect you will find that it isn't that uncommon.  In this case, of course, there is a very limited pool of legitimate bidders anyway.

I (obviously) can't rule out that Bush/Cheney went out of their way to award contracts to Halliburton for old times' sake, but the available evidence does NOT, TMK, support that conclusion.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldsoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 6:58pm
The interesting fact on the matter is that there are only two corperations in that line of work. Haliburton and a French Owned Corperation. So I do not think Joe Bob's construction had a chance on biding out that contract even if offered out.

Lets see we can rehash the Lyndon Johnson Vietnam encursion where as a major share holder in Shell Oil Corperation, he uped the combat troop strength in 1965 and staged the Gulf Of Tonkin Incident, to protect the rubber plantations of RSVN, which Shell Oil owned, or John Kennedy's encursion into Cuba in 1962 (Bay of Pigs) to aledgedly reinstate power to those more freindly to the mobsters who owned all the casinos in Cuba, and those American sugar interests who losts millions on Castro's revolution cutting off the cheap supply of sugar cane.

We cut off Japans access to oil reserves and to scrap metals in 1940, vital to their industrial base, so it is only fair by the reasoning of those today, that they went to war against us. And FDR was doing whatever he could to get us into the war for a faster US economic recovery and ending the Great Depression of the 30's, so baiting the Japanese with economic sanctions, baiting the Germans with Lend Lease and American escorts to convoys to and from Britian was bound to get some reaction, and it did on Dec7th and 11th. And the Japanese internment of 1941/42/43 solely based on racial bigotry and to "legally" confiscate lands and properties seen as prime by those in power. Where were the German and Italian internment camps on the eastern seaboard, where there was just as much chance of invasion, sabotage, or attack by aircraft or submarine?

History is allways ripe with rumors and inuendo on why those in power go to war, and for what devious reason, plots and economic gains, personal vendettas, or whatever contrived reasons, and there are those who will continue the rumors to please whatever agenda he or she cares to persue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote welcome guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 8:06pm

Halliburton
Provides products and services to the petroleum and energy industries. Web site provides information on the various services offered to the various

There are hundreds of companys that where subcontracted by Halliburton right now?
And you say there was only two?
 | www.halliburton.com/

Originally posted by oldsoldier oldsoldier wrote:

The interesting fact on the matter is that there are only two corperations in that line of work. Haliburton and a French Owned Corperation. So I do not think Joe Bob's construction had a chance on biding out that contract even if offered out.

Lets see we can rehash the Lyndon Johnson Vietnam encursion where as a major share holder in Shell Oil Corperation, he uped the combat troop strength in 1965 and staged the Gulf Of Tonkin Incident, to protect the rubber plantations of RSVN, which Shell Oil owned, or John Kennedy's encursion into Cuba in 1962
 Paralleling the prospects of war to Cuban Missile Crisis
(Bay of Pigs) Guevara, "Mobilising the Masses for the Invasion," Speech made to sugar workers in Santa Clara on March 28, 1961; twenty days before the Bay of Pigs invasion On April 17, 1961.
 History is allways ripe with rumors and inuendo on why those in power go to war, and for what devious reason, plots and economic gains, personal vendettas, or whatever contrived reasons, and there are those who will continue the rumors to please whatever agenda he or she cares to persue. Agree,  BUT education and facts from both sides of the political party's and the independent panels *Sept.11* is good thinking with a closed mind is no good. Do you remember the topic you got IP banned on? http://tippmann.com/players/forum/wwf77a/forum_posts.asp?TID =103556 You where saying why should armed forces radio only broadcast one side of the political party. 

Again what is the wording of the 1st Admendment?



Edited by welcome guest
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ms2013 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 August 2004 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:





i will take my liberties won on the battlefield and say this is liberal garbage, and it is sad that so many people take their freedom for granted as to insult those who gave it to them. stupid pot smoking hippies.

john.
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