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Abortion?

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Poll Question: Should a mother have the option to abort a healthy fetus?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
57 [43.18%]
3 [2.27%]
72 [54.55%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EYES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:34pm

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:


The question, in short form, is: When does the fetus become and independent life of the type that murder laws become effective?

That's the perspective I always take on this topic and what I base my opinions on. Because I believe that once an egg is fertilized, there is life there. That's just my personal beliefs though, science can't prove that to be true even though it probably is.

However, I don't think this "independent life" stuff should matter. Take a vegetable for example. They live totaly off of life support. They are not "and independent life". The life support system breathes for them and meets all requirements for life to be necessary in that body and keeps them alive. If you pull that plug on the support system, you take their life. Is that murder? Well, that all depends on the legal definition of murder..... My beliefs completely contradict everything I just posted in this paragraph though, just ignore that.

What we need is a legal definition of "life" and "murder".



 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:38pm
Everybody has their beliefs; on both sides of the fence. The fallacy BOTH sides fall into is the opinion that law should be based on THEIR beliefs.

People just don't do a very good job at recognizing the difference between what they BELIEVE to be true and what IS, in fact, verified truth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:


Originally posted by Solipsism Solipsism wrote:

Abortion is a little bit different than beating the crap out of a woman.

You're right, if something goes wrong while beating up your wife,
someone dies. If something goes right in an abortion, someone dies.


Assuming the fetus qualifies as "someone"... Geez... Assumptions (tick) me off.


You're right, stupid assumption, I suppose. I should've said kill a human organism instead of "someone". But hey, sorry, you know what they say about assumptions and me being an ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:43pm
Your assumption may be correct. In truth, most people here know I lean to the Right in my political views, but people would be better served to put more effort into analyzing their own thought processes and realizing what is and is not based on their own assumptions.

Much to the dismay of the Left, there are, in fact, intelligent, well informed people in the realms of the Right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotreDamePaintB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:45pm

Yes, everyone has there own beliefs, but I don't no how someone can reason with me about how killing a baby is right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EYES Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:46pm

Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

Everybody has their beliefs; on both sides of the fence. The fallacy BOTH sides fall into is the opinion that law should be based on THEIR beliefs.

People just don't do a very good job at recognizing the difference between what they BELIEVE to be true and what IS, in fact, verified truth.

I COMPLETELY agree with what you just posted. THANK YOU. I'm glad the entire world isn't ignorant...

I don't think my beliefs should be law. That's why it is so hard for me to place a legal decision and viewpoint on this tpic. Because there is no verified truth that personally satisfies me. And because the current laws go against my morals and beliefs. So I contradict myself.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:47pm
Sandman: Wasnt it determined that 3rd trimester abortions were indeed not legal to perform? I think most people would agree that third trimester abortions are not A-okay. Couldnt it be said that most agree that at the third trimester that the fetus is a person and therefore has rights? Certainally one could not claim 486 cells qualifies as a person with rights....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

Your assumption may be correct. In truth, most people here know I lean to the Right in my political views, but people would be better served to put more effort into analyzing their own thought processes and realizing what is and is not based on their own assumptions.

Much to the dismay of the Left, there are, in fact, intelligent, well informed people in the realms of the Right.


Oh, I agree. Honestly, there are two or more ways to look at every issue. That's why it's an issue, rather than a given. It just depends on which side of the argument you hear and works for you.

I don't think my assumption was a huge stretch, however, and the reason it was out there was to save myself from writing a proof to give evidence and reasoning for all of my assumptions with givens. If someone disagrees, then they can post that they disagree. When/if that happens, I argue out my points and if they still don't agree, then so be it. My logic does not work for them.

But if you don't disagree with me, I'm not going to argue my ideas to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:49pm
Hades, they're a life form, taking away LIFE IS murder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slothbutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Slothbutt Slothbutt wrote:

I am Pro-Life.

Actually my philosophy class studied this alittle bit. I think Jim Stones argument for the wrongfullness of abortion is a good one.

-Premise 1. Healthy infants have a powerful claim to our protection and we wrong them seriously if we kill them.
-Premise 2. There are no morally relevant differences between infants and fetuses.
-Conclusion- Therefor, healthy fetuses have a powerful claim to our protection and we wrong them seriously if we kill them.

A morally relevant reason is one that would justify different treatment.
He goes on to show there are no morally relevant differences between infants and fetuses.

Birth-There is no significant difference 5min before and 5min after birth.
Viability- They need more care from there mother so that gives us a right to kill them?
Sentient-They can't "feel" the first few months. So we have the right to kill people in that are in a temperary comma who arn't sentient?
Human form- They look like a bund of cells or a tad-pole. Isn't this the same a racism or sexism. It's only looks.

So he shows you have to agree with the second premise and if you want to deny the conclusion you have to some how disprove the first premise.

If you are intrested in this topic I suggest you read The Morality of Abortion: An exchange, by Jim Stone.


my post = ignored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:52pm
The far Left hides behind the "right to choose", ignoring the issue of fetal rights, even in partial birth abortions where the fetus is aborted in the birth canal.

As far as I know, there is no Federal law banning partial birth abortion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blue Hopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:53pm
What's the difference between killing an unborn baby and a baby that has been born. They both can't survive on their own 
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The views exspressed in this post do not represent that of the Tippmann Company or the Paintball community but solely the individual who type it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:54pm
Slothbutt,

Your post was not ignored. Depending on how well you know the art of Philosophy, you should know that the terms "Premise" and "Assertion" are equivalent with "Assumption".

The study you have outlined is designed specifically to reach a pre-determined conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotreDamePaintB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:54pm
Say a woman does choose abortion, your taking away someones future, maybe this child may grow up to find the cure for cancer, become a great athlete, a leader, or on the badside a killer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:55pm
Originally posted by Big Jim Big Jim wrote:

Hades, they're a life form, taking away LIFE IS murder.


So you don't believe in eating anything natural or using paper? Cows, corn, and cucumbers are life forms as well.

Not saying they're equivalent lifeforms, just pointing out huge, swiss-cheese, holes in your argument.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SandMan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 1:56pm
Originally posted by NotreDamePaintB NotreDamePaintB wrote:

Say a woman does choose abortion, your taking away someones future, maybe this child may grow up to find the cure for cancer, become a great athlete, a leader, or on the badside a killer


That's idealism at the price of reality. What if they turn out to be serial killers? Your argument is not relevant.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by SandMan SandMan wrote:

Originally posted by NotreDamePaintB NotreDamePaintB wrote:

Say a woman does choose abortion, your taking away someones future, maybe this child may grow up to find the cure for cancer, become a great athlete, a leader, or on the badside a killer


That's idealism at the price of reality. What if they turn out to be serial killers? Your argument is not relevant.


Every serial killer was an unaborted baby. So was Hitler, Saddam Hussein, and Enos.


Edited by Ejp414
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slothbutt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:02pm
Yes I know that Sandman, But you still have to diagree with one of the premises to disagree with the conlusion.

P1. If it is raining the sidewalks are wet.
P2. The sidewalk are wet.
Conclusion- It must be raining.

In order to say you desagree with the conclusion you have to say one of the premises is wrong.. the sprinklers are on it is not raining. Premise 2 is not correct.

(this was an example for people with no experince in philosopy)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:03pm

Originally posted by Big Jim Big Jim wrote:

Hades, they're a life form, taking away LIFE IS murder.

Not true.  Whether or not a fetus is a "life" is barely relevant, since we (humans) kill all kinds of things all the time.

It would be an interesting sidetrack to compare fetus killing with hunting (for instance), but that isn't even necessary, as we humans kill other humans all the time, for a variety of reasons.

Only a small minority of taking of human lives is "murder" by any law.  Most killing, of course, is in a war context, where most laws are suspended.  And historically there have been many other legal killings in different societies.  Heck, it was only 150 years ago in this country that one could kill one's own human property for no reason at all.  And under current law, you can shoot to kill anybody who was just trying to rob you of a few hundred dollars.

So.  Therefore, I say fine - if you want to call a fetus "life", that is fine by me - but SO WHAT?

Why does it automatically follow that just because a fetus is life that we shouldn't kill it?

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Jim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:04pm

So you don't believe in eating anything natural or using paper? Cows, corn, and cucumbers are life forms as well.

Not saying they're equivalent lifeforms, just pointing out huge, swiss-cheese, holes in your argument

                                                          Quote from Sandman.

Thanks, that was humbling.

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