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Abortion?

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Poll Question: Should a mother have the option to abort a healthy fetus?
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57 [43.18%]
3 [2.27%]
72 [54.55%]
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DBibeau855 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

The fact that it does cause such an uproar, while in poor taste, is hilarious because it shouldn't. If you spend all your time being respectful, while still being told "have fun in hell," then I deserve a little time to lash back. I don't take things personally, because they are a difference in belief systems, so this shouldn't be taken personally either.


Oh please. One person calls some guy with blond high lights tight jeans and sweater pull over a fairy and its almost a bloody internation incident. God, leftist, atheist, right wing double standards are starting to bug me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DBibeau855 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by Clark Kent Clark Kent wrote:

Laurie was a nurse at 13?


I think he messed something up. That seems strange. But its a very sad story.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 3:00pm

Originally posted by DBibeau855 DBibeau855 wrote:

Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

The fact that it does cause such an uproar, while in poor taste, is hilarious because it shouldn't. If you spend all your time being respectful, while still being told "have fun in hell," then I deserve a little time to lash back. I don't take things personally, because they are a difference in belief systems, so this shouldn't be taken personally either.


Oh please. One person calls some guy with blond high lights tight jeans and sweater pull over a fairy and its almost a bloody internation incident. God, leftist, atheist, right wing double standards are starting to bug me.

Making fun of someone's religion and making fun of someone's true character is different. Religion is grasped by many; however, making comments to one person is a personal attack meant in no other fashion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 6:41pm
Pmoney i totally agree with you and i think i stated it a couple pages back. A person is a person no matter what they look like. Its at conception.

Dunes what are these lies that religion has? Sure it will be flawed because we are only human but the idea of religion is perfect unflawed.

Zesty I dont know who you have been talkin too but my faith(Catholic) doesnt say you will go to hell for not having religion. I think you just talk to very uneducated religious people.

Hades that story is extremely sad. It is horrible what the father did, but I still believe the child needed a chance. Sure they would be screwed up real bad, but a chance is better than none. They were still people. Thats a hard one to make my descion on but i still think women can't play the roll of God and kill someone else its just like murder.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clark Kent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 6:44pm

I've made this point in previous discussions in this subject here before, but anyway...

All lives are not the same.  All persons are not the same.  Simply being a person or a life does not carry with it the same moral protection as any  particular other life or person.

We kill persons and take lives all the time, for a variety of reasons, and with different moral results.

Saying "a fetus is a life/person" does not finish the debate - that is only half an argument.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 March 2005 at 7:07pm
I dont know why it cant be the end. To destroy a life is bad in most cases, especially those of innocent people who cant defend themselves and cant even speak for themselves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:37am
Back to the joke comments...

I'm wondering where some of you are getting this stuff. I find comments like 'I don't appreciate religion's lies' offensive. Hades's sig is borderline - I can see the humor in it (particularly because it's written incorrectly).

Heck, I make sacrilegious jokes all the time. If I were to miraculously be transported before the Sanhedrin circa 0 AD (and could speak fluent Hebrew, Greek, and/or Aramaic), the Sanhedrin would tear their hair and clothing, scream, and have me stoned for irreverence. I make a lot of jokes about how "God's sitting there thinking 'oops'" and so on that I know aren't true, but they're funny.

Calling a religion a lie (even if there has been a history of corruption) is just not cool. Call it wrong, but don't call it a lie (PM me on this if you have specific things to address here).

And to Zesty and Dune, about the hell comments.. you must be surrounded by the most immature Christians ever. The most I tell people is that they MIGHT go to hell, but I never say 'ZOMG TEH HELL 4 J00!!!'. You are perfectly right to criticize those who try to threaten you with that. And for the virgin birth, I welcome that kind of criticism because it ends up informing both parties better than before (and FYI, I believe it was the Discovery Channel that found that virgin births are biologically possible).

My only question for pro-abortionists (I don't call it pro-choice; I don't expect people to call me pro-life either) is this: What about Caesarean sections? People talk about rape and women who will die from giving birth... aren't C-Sections supposed to help with difficult births? It's not like they're suddenly illegal, is it?

And in conclusion, I'll state a common statement again. What if that person would have been a great contributor to the whole human race (before anyone mentions predestination, I'd like to say: don't. Another matter for PM, don't feel like getting into it here)? I believe it was Beethoven who had 8 siblings who all had deformities, a poor mother with syphilis, and a bunch of other serious problems.

Death is too permanent to idly toss around. It's irreversible, and if you realize the death was a mistake (as in death sentences for criminals), it's too late. People haven't been risen from the dead for a good long while, no matter how you look at it.

I think I'll sleep before I make this post longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adrenalinejunky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 12:46am
i'm with senn except for one thing...

Originally posted by AdmiralSenn AdmiralSenn wrote:

(and FYI, I believe it was the Discovery Channel that found that virgin births are biologically possible).



i have absolutely no faith in the discovery channel...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:30am
Originally posted by adrenalinejunky adrenalinejunky wrote:

i'm with senn except for one thing...

Originally posted by AdmiralSenn AdmiralSenn wrote:

(and FYI, I believe it was the Discovery Channel that found that virgin births are biologically possible).



i have absolutely no faith in the discovery channel...


I don't have faith in them either, but the fact that they included it on a major broadcast suggests that there is reason to believe the idea is correct. It was some really incredibly rare percentage of people that could have a sort of hermaphroditic DNA sequence without the extra organs. It was something like an egg fertilizing itself from existing DNA, I think.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Different Thread Different Thread wrote:

Fewer than one-third of conceptions culminate in live births. The rest end prematurely, either in early gestation or by miscarriage. Nature appears to be an avid abortionist, which ought to trouble Christians who believe in both original sin and the doctrine that a human being equipped with a soul comes into existence at conception. Souls bearing the stain of original sin, we are told, do not merit salvation. That is why, according to traditional theology, unbaptized babies have to languish in limbo for all eternity. Owing to faulty reproductive design, it would seem that the population of limbo must be at least twice that of heaven and hell combined.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:03pm
Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by Different Thread Different Thread wrote:

Fewer than one-third of conceptions culminate in live births. The rest end prematurely, either in early gestation or by miscarriage. Nature appears to be an avid abortionist, which ought to trouble Christians who believe in both original sin and the doctrine that a human being equipped with a soul comes into existence at conception. Souls bearing the stain of original sin, we are told, do not merit salvation. That is why, according to traditional theology, unbaptized babies have to languish in limbo for all eternity. Owing to faulty reproductive design, it would seem that the population of limbo must be at least twice that of heaven and hell combined.


I have some ideas about original sin. I don't think it's actually possible for a person to go their entire life without sinning. At any case, it's certainly not possible for a baby that is 1. isolated from outside contact and 2. probably not aware of itself to commit a sin. I believe that in the Bible, really young children were not required to give offerings for their sins (not sure on this), but their parents had to, suggesting that sin has to be done outside the womb and the person should at least be responsible for their own actions.

So, no. Whoever wrote that loses.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:08pm
Even without the original sin part, what about all the babies that do not come to full term naturally and are aborted by nature/God? It is justified for God to kill fetuses but not mankind?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 9:22pm

Hey!

I've always been pro choice.

Sometime the circumstances justify an abortion, whether the fetus is healthy or not.

However, I do not support aborting a pregnancy after the 4 month or so period after which the fetus develops a nervous system.

And I do have personal experience with abortions.

My own girlfriend whom I love to death and would do absolutely anything in this world for has had an abortion.(7 months ago)

And with her, the father, which was her abusive boyfriend at the time, convinced to have the procedure done.

He threatened to abandon both her and the child if she continued the pregnancy and to beat her in such a way that would kill the kid anyway.

Now that's a lot for a girl to handle.

She didn't know what do, she didn't want her parents to know, and she didn't want to put herself into harm's way any more than what she already was.

So she had the abortion, and then her boyfriend left her anyway.

Some girls aren't as physically able as they should be to have a kid, some may not be able to afford it, others may not be able to go through having to give their born child away to a complete stanger and would rather get rid of it before too much attachment sets in.

Now I know that isn't always the case, but often times it is.

And yes, I know that there are the girls that just don't give a damn about the whole thing and are just being selfish by having the procedure done.

But there are always those who take advantage of something that is intended to be helpful to those who really need it, and there always will be.

But anyways...before I get too much into it, the bottom line is that under certain circumstances, I feel that abortion can be something that does good in the end.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by Different Thread Different Thread wrote:

Fewer than one-third of conceptions culminate in live births. The rest end prematurely, either in early gestation or by miscarriage. Nature appears to be an avid abortionist, which ought to trouble Christians who believe in both original sin and the doctrine that a human being equipped with a soul comes into existence at conception. Souls bearing the stain of original sin, we are told, do not merit salvation. That is why, according to traditional theology, unbaptized babies have to languish in limbo for all eternity. Owing to faulty reproductive design, it would seem that the population of limbo must be at least twice that of heaven and hell combined.


First of all Limbo was brought up in the middle ages by the Catholic church and since then it has done away with it stating that it was incorrect, so that doesnt work. And why can't God decide who dies he does in life anyways and he created all. And what you stated earlier about size, who cares size and time and stuff like that dont matter in heaven. God can but however many he wants anywhere, your soul might not even take up any space, who knows. We will all find out eventually.

Lawless i think the "my gf was stressed and couldnt handle it" is bunk. If we want to look at it sex is for procreation and if she isnt ready or mature for that then why have sex(in technical terms). She could of gotten it adopted. Does a life matter over what a parent will think, i hope so. Value life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lawless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 10:32pm

Originally posted by lant lant wrote:

Lawless i think the "my gf was stressed and couldnt handle it" is bunk. If we want to look at it sex is for procreation and if she isnt ready or mature for that then why have sex(in technical terms). She could of gotten it adopted. Does a life matter over what a parent will think, i hope so. Value life.

Ok...I'm not flamin' here...I respect your opinion...but something that I chose to leave out is that her bf raped her on a Memorial Day weekend trip up north last year.

So yeah...it's not like she had a hand in getting pregnant.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Cool Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 March 2005 at 11:03pm

Usually I avoid debates on abortion like they were the plague, especially I was one who rode the fence so long on the issue. I understand what both sides of the arguement are, and i can understand victims of rape wanting to rid themselves of an unwanted child.

When my girlfriend told me she was pregnant I was floored, I was about to be laid off and I thought there was no way I could handle being a father and having someone else I had to take care and I tried very hard to talk her into an abortion. Well she agreed that if I went to a sonogram (whatever they are called) at seven weeks and still wanted to be rid of the "kid" she would begin that whole nightmare of a procedure. Maybe its the Christian upbringing I had, maybe it was having a father who taught me you need to be a man and take responsibility foryour actions, or it might just have been looking at something the size of a peanut and realizing that conscious or not it was a human life.

My heart goes out to rape victims, but quite frankly the number of pregnancies due to rape is small. Yes its a woman's body, yes she/ they may not be ready to be parents, but ask anybody, you'll never be ready to be a parent. I married my girlfriend and there isn't a day that goes by I don't thank God that I didn't kill my son. There are always consequences to your actions, if you're not big enough to raise a child or at least allow a child you birth to go to a home where they're loved then keep your pants on. After all that's the real issue isn't it, whether or not people should be held accountable for their own actions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Even without the original sin part, what about all the babies that do not come to full term naturally and are aborted by nature/God? It is justified for God to kill fetuses but not mankind?


I actually have an interesting notion that God doesn't interfere with things on Earth very often. The Bible supports it. This kind of covers a lot of areas, but basically unless you've decided to follow God on faith only (or if he handpicks you, which has happened as well) you won't see indisputable proof that God exists. Look in Revelation, people are going to die when the evidence is right in their faces....

Anyway, I'm just saying that just because something happens doesn't mean God did it. If God stopped every single crime and sin, it would be like having no free will. Without the temptation to do wrong, you cannot choose to follow the better path. It'd be like forcing all humans to believe in God from birth...

Argh. This point of view takes a long time to explain, so again if anyone wants the whole thing (or even pieces) PM me.

And as for justification, regardless of whether it's God killing the baby or not (again, I don't think so), God has killed people in the past. Literally it says 'took him away' or 'they dropped dead', so that may not be the same as killing. If the person's soul is suddenly taken before God, it's different from their body going through the process of death through disease or other conditions... again, too much to readily post here, and my superhuge posts are wastes of time since only about two people read them, and then I have to make each post longer to counter their arguments.

Anyone interested in some of these ideas, PM me please. It helps me to explain it to someone as well as it could help you understand something.
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