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Kerry’s "Promises"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:45pm
What difference does it make whether or not they are born a certain way or not? If they want to do something, ie.. marry the same gender, what difference does it make? To the eyes of the government, it shouldn't matter. As long as an act does not infringe on someone elses rights, which it doesn't, it should be allowed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:54pm
You beat me to the punch, Hades. Though I do have some other points.

Isn't it someone's choice to marry someone of a different race?
And if it can't be proven that people are born homosexual, how can it be proven that they are born heterosexual? Perhaps they make a conscious choice at some point in their lives to say "OK I'm **edited**" or "OK I'm straight." (let me point out though, that I know LOTS of homosexual people, and uniformly they say that it wasn't a lifestyle that they chose, but rather just something they felt was natural for them... ie. they're born with it).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hashi2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 4:19pm

Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

OK. I'll deal with you on several points.

1. Homosexual marriage.
It is not up to the government to decide matters of faith. What if the government were to say that you couldn't marry someone of a different faith than you? Or that you couldn't marry someone of a different race? Or from a different country? Then why is it ok for the government to say to two consenting adults that they can't get married (but maybe it'll be possible to get a "civil union") just because they happen to be of the same sex? That's ludicrous, especially when various churches allow marriage in their faiths. 
 Marriage wasn't formated for Homosexuals. If it keeps getting remolded, then pretty soon there won't be a firm contract. Do with the Constitution as you wish, but don't twist the words that define marriage. Also, no one said that they couldn't have a legal binding contract to share property, money, and whatever those people do.
2. Abortion
First of all, being a newborn baby attached to their mother's umbilical cord (or, as you so eloquently put it, is "strung to her") is ENTIRELY different than being a ball of cells the size of your thumb. As is being mentally handicapped. See, these people are not dependent, biologically speaking, on a "host." And, no, of course I wouldn't like you to have squished me (and I doubt it would be better for the world, because, frankly, I'm far more intelligent and talented than you will ever be, but that's beside the point).
 I said that I would put it into terms you would understand. I see I did my job for a while, but you still clearly don't understand the whole thing. Also, dependant is dependant. And that ball of cells is a living, breathing HUMAN BEING. Get that through your thick scull and into whatever working brain matter you have. As for being more intelligent and more talented, I will gladly take you up on that. If you ever want to exchange test scores,or videos of a football or paintball games, just say so.
3. ECONOMY (not echonomy)
Perhaps you can't blame it on the President alone. Oh, wait, I blamed it on the President AND CONGRESS! It's the government's job to make the economy a level playing ground for everyone. That means, the government has a responsibility to make it possible for a poor person to get rich, and the rich to stay rich, or whatever they desire. The President and Congress do, in fact, control a heck of a lot of the economy. They control taxes, healthcare, etc etc. Is it a coincidence that in the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy turned around, but, when Bush was elected, the economy went down the toilet (even before 9/11)? 9/11 may have had some of an effect on the economy, but it also had enormous potential to fix the economy, according to you. You say that people need to get off their asses and work. Well, NYC had a lot of fixing up to do post 9/11, and people did get off their asses and worked. Did it help the economy? Nah. Oh, and after Pearl Harbor, the US economy skyrocketed. (That and I love the arbitrary fractions you could said could be blamed on the President. That was really cool. I wish I could make up facts that well.) 
 Wow! New York. Just because some people in a huge craphole got jobs (which a lot were volunteer if i remember correctly), the whole country is suposed to turn around. People around the US are lazy. Look at the big picture (not just NYC).
4. The last couple sentences you wrote (oh wait, that's just a big run-on)
I see it the other way around. Going to war with an independent republic without the consent of the majority of countries around the world is wrong. Telling people they can't marry another consenting adult is wrong (even if, as you say, it "bends many of the concepts" ...whatever that means). Making an unfair economic playing field, favoring the rich above the poor, and slashing welfare and health care reforms is wrong. Oh, and yes, I think committing crimes is a bad thing. For example, driving drunk is terrible. Theft is awful! And being a public disturbance is just irresponsible. It sure is a shame that Bush was arrested three times (!) because of those things.
Ill cover that later. I have to go. And BTW. Learn somenew words.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 4:56pm
Oh Hashi, I know it must be difficult for you to understand someone who knows how to spell economy (not echonomy), skull (not scull), supposed (not suposed), dependent (not dependant). Really, though, try to hear me out.

As for marriage, I understand that in your protected, Christian world, it's very difficult to see others' points of view. But there ARE liberal sects of Christianity and Judaism that allow homosexual marriages, as well as other (wow, there are other faiths than Christianity?? Holy redneck, Batman, Hashi's misinformed!) faiths like Unitarian Universalism that perform marriages between members of the same sex. I'd really like to see the stone-cold definition of marriage. But who decides what a marriage is? The Christian church? Actually there are quite literally hundreds of different faiths out there, as well as different sects of Christianity, some of which actually allow marriages (not civil unions) between homosexuals. What if it were the other way around, and someone said that YOU could only marry a male? But if you were in love with a female you could always get a "civil union" which is essentially the same thing, except without the meaning of your faith backing it up? Frankly, marriage was not "formatted" (again, learn to spell) for homosexuals or heterosexuals, per se. It was made for two people who love each other.

Secondly, a ball of cells, as much as you'd like to have it be, is NOT a "living, breathing human being." Does it have lungs, a heart, kidneys, etc etc? No. It is a ball of cells with the POTENTIAL to be a living thing. If you want to get down to the point, then each individual sperm is a living thing (because it has the potential for life), so every time you mastrubate, you're committing millions upon millions of murders.

Economy. I am looking at the big picture. Just as you say I can't blame the economy on the President (who is around for 4 years), you can't blame the economic mess on 9/11 (which happened for a day, and NYC is very well cleaned up now, as I've been there recently). People around the US are not lazy, as we are the richest, strongest nation in the world. We jsut can't fidn jobs because our President and Congress is fiscally irresponsible.

Fourthly... oh wait, you couldn't come up with anything to counter my point about Bush being an alcoholic, drug using loser who's gotten arrested three times (you know, I don't think I know ANYONE who's gotten arrested three times).

Edited by Multi-Colored J
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Ejp414 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:01pm
Sperm doesn't have human DNA, a fetus does...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:05pm

Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:

Sperm doesn't have human DNA, a fetus does...

Finally, a topic in which you and I disagree.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Dune Dune wrote:

Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:

Sperm doesn't have human DNA, a fetus does...

Finally, a topic in which you and I disagree.





Abortion is my weakest subject. I try not to argue it too often, but I think the masturbation is murder if abortion is murder argument is completely wack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:08pm
Hahaha, I see where you're coming from. I was raised in a very feministic household, so I was quick to the pro-choice route.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:14pm
Actually, sperm does in fact have half a human's full DNA code within it. I'm saying that both the sperm and a fetus have the potential to become life, but is one sperm cell THAT much different than a sperm and an egg? Of course it has a much higher potential to become a human, but both the sperm and the ball of cells (i don't mean a third trimester kid) can't live on their own as a person.

That and I'm presenting a similiarly crazy argument to show Hashi that he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:21pm
Oh, and Hashi, I don't, and never have wasted my time taking videos of me playing football or paintball. I was too busy graduating high school with a GPA above 4.0, an SAT score of 1410, getting two full tuition scholarships from universities that I applied to (room and board also from one, which I turned down), holding a principal violin position at my conservatory last year (my freshman year), making the Dean's list both semesters, and playing viola in a professional pit orchestra all summer long. Oh, that and playing with the Baltimore Symphony my senior year of high school.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

Actually, sperm does in fact have half a human's full DNA code within it. I'm saying that both the sperm and a fetus have the potential to become life, but is one sperm cell THAT much different than a sperm and an egg? Of course it has a much higher potential to become a human, but both the sperm and the ball of cells (i don't mean a third trimester kid) can't live on their own as a person.

That and I'm presenting a similiarly crazy argument to show Hashi that he doesn't know what he's talking about.


Ermm, first of all, the fact that it has half the DNA means nothing at all. A chimpanzee's DNA is somewhere around 90% similar to a human's DNA. It has to be human DNA to classify as a human. So yes, a sperm is much different from a zygote, because a zygote is actively forming a living human being, that cannot be denied even if you do think that a fetus is not a human.

Maybe hospital patients cannot live on their own, should we be able to kill them off as we please? Hell, as an infant, you couldn't even live on your own. You are completely dependent on another human being to survive at that age. And by law, not just morals, you are indeed a human being then.

Finally, in some states if you kill a pregnant woman, then you are guilty of two charges of murder. (Those are state laws and not for every state). I personally find it crazy that legal abortion and the law I just mentioned can possibly co-exist.

If you want to disprove a crazy argument, don't use another crazy argument.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 5:57pm
First of all, a sperm has HUMAN DNA. It has half the DNA necessary for a human. Not DNA that is 50% similar to a human, but rather half of a human's DNA code. The fact that a sperm isn't actively forming a human being is a much better argument.

You can't use an example of a living human against a zygote either. That's just the same as me using a sperm against a fetus argument. A zygote is, as you said, actively FORMING a human being. It is not a human being, according to that logic. That hospital patients and infants can't live on their own is much different than what I said. I said that a fetus cannot live without a host, the mother. Thus, "killing" (I use the term loosely, as I don't contend that the zygote is alive) a fetus is not the same as killing a person.

That and the states with the double murder charge only have it if the fetus is viable (that is, she could go into labor when she was murdered and the fetus could have had a chance at living).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ejp414 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 6:06pm
Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

First of all, a sperm has HUMAN DNA. It has half the DNA necessary for a human. Not DNA that is 50% similar to a human, but rather half of a human's DNA code. The fact that a sperm isn't actively forming a human being is a much better argument. First you say it has human DNA. Then you say it has half of a human's DNA code. You contradict yourself. In any case, the second statement is right, the first one is not. Your point is invalid.

You can't use an example of a living human against a zygote either. That's just the same as me using a sperm against a fetus argument. A zygote is, as you said, actively FORMING a human being. It is not a human being, according to that logic. I disagree. But as I said, whether or not you believe it's a human doesn't matter. Re-read my argument and maybe you'll understand it better. That hospital patients and infants can't live on their own is much different than what I said. I said that a fetus cannot live without a host, the mother. Thus, "killing" (I use the term loosely, as I don't contend that the zygote is alive) a fetus is not the same as killing a person. It is the same. It relies on a relationship with some other person to survive. You tell yourself it is different because if it was not then it would perhaps be immoral to you. This doesn't matter, because the basic logic is exactly the same.  It is indeed the same situation.

That and the states with the double murder charge only have it if the fetus is viable (that is, she could go into labor when she was murdered and the fetus could have had a chance at living). Source? I'm not going to take anything from face value from someone who  honestly thinks masturbation should be called murder if abortion is called murder. Do you honestly think you could pass that argument in a real debate?


By calling your argument ridiculous, I'm not saying the thought processes of all of those for abortion is wrong or crazy. I see your argument as the same way I'd see someone saying we should bomb abortion clinics because abortion is immoral -- wrong, unreasonable, and outright ridiculous.

EDIT: By the way, it sounds to me like you are merely marching along party lines spitting out pre-written arguments. Have you ever had to deal with a situation that involves abortion? I suppose not if you're spending all your time playing the violin or the viola. Great instruments, by the way, I plan on taking violin lessons this year.


Edited by Ejp414
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 6:37pm
First of all, you don't know what you're talking about concerning DNA. Try taking an advanced biology course. You said that sperm does not have human DNA. It does. It has half the HUMAN DNA necessary to complete the genome. It does not, however, have a full human genome. Comparing that to a monkey is an invalid analogy, as a monkey does not take part in forming a human being, while a sperm does. I didn't contradict myself; I just said it right, while you don't know how to form a coherent sentence and argue biology.

Yes, a zygote is FORMING a human being. That statement implies that it is NOT a human being. It's just like when you're making an ice cream sundae (forgive the stupid analogy, but I think you'll get my point), in that the ice cream, whipped cream, hot fudge, and cherry, when put together, make a tasty treat. However, taken alone, they do not equal a sundae. Secondly, if a zygote is not a human being but is still living, what the hell is it? It would really help if you clarified some statements here. Thirdly, a zygote being dependent on a mother IS different than someone relying on a nurse to feed them, because a zygote is BIOLOGICALLY dependent on a mother to live. It's not depending on someone's good nature for them to CONTINUE living, but, rather, it is NOT a human being, and needs a host that it is BIOLOGICALLY dependent on to BECOME a human being.

I'm not going to source all my statements because each state has different laws regarding pregnant women. I'm sure that for every example I give you, I'll have others from other states. Oh, and I don't think masturbation is murder. You're stupid for not recognizing sarcasm directed at Hashi's ludicrous analogies. Good job at reading between the lines there, buddy.

Lastly, you comparing my argument to someone bombing abortion clinics is entirely faulty. Just because certain arguments have a few general similarities ("wrong, unreasonable, and outright ridiculous" which, incidentally, are subjective terms that don't follow logic or debating rules... we need facts here). Try taking a speech/debate class sometime, and you'll learn that that kind of comparison just ruins your argument.

Oh wait, one more thing. Just because I haven't had a personal experience with abortion doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion on it. Especially because, for some reason, I doubt you have, either. Should I say that, because you're quite obviously of significantly lower intelligence than me that you shouldn't be allowed to talk about things like this? Or that since you can't recognize sarcasm you should be stopped from engaging in online discussions where the other people in it are much smarter and better-versed in the English language than you? (Oh, if you didn't realize it, that was sarcasm right there.)

Oh, and by the way, I'm not spitting out political arguments. I actually have to form my own opinions, and I actually think about what I'm posting, rather than making a concerted (but really unsuccessful, nonetheless) effort to make myself appear smarter than I actually am.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

   Comparing that to a monkey is an invalid analogy, as a monkey does not take part in forming a human being, while a sperm does.


Although considering how screwed up society in general is, monkeys may end up playing a part in that sometime in the near future.
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Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

Wow... it would help if you used an actual argument against Kerry, but seeing as your opinions (like most stupid conservatives) are based solely on quotes taken out of context like "I won't midlead you into war" and then saying "I didn't attack Bush." That frankly pales into comparison when you consider that Bush said that Iraq was importing radioactive materials from Africa and had weapons of mass destruction. In a STATE OF THE UNION address. Naturally, Iraq had neither the African uranium nor any weapons of mass destruction. Oh, and the whole "I'm going to make America safer" attitude that Bush is purporting himself to be is a load of crap. Before 9/11, Bush was so preoccupied with getting his tax cuts through, he decided (yes I realize it's Congress's decision too) to cut security programs at airports that the Clinton administration had put into place before 2000. Hmm... let's see, taxes are cut, security programs at airports are cut, then 9/11 happens. Holy crap! Looks like Bush screwed up there. Not to mention his economic policies. If you don't cut taxes for the middle/lower classes and raise them (slightly) for the upper classes, then the class structure divides, putting a great difference in wealth between the upper class and everyone else. Being a democrat, Kerry favors getting rid of Bush's tax cut and reinstating a Clinton-esque tax system (when we had the highest economic growth in US history, as well as the highest budget surplus in history).

And let's not even mention the way that the far right is trying to restrict our freedom (except for that oh-so-precious right to bear arms, that the right definitely can't be without, but peoples' intrinsic rights to liberty, to do, socially speaking, what they feel is right, and what they want (i.e. **edited** marriage) are expendable).


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fractus.scud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 8:02pm
first we allow **edited** marrige. Then it's "lets let foreigners run for president" then it's "only do what the UN wants. Were slowly taking apart the intracate system thats held our country together all these years. And Kerry highers taxes on the "rich" not the middle class. So how does a middle class person expect to "climb up the food chain" they can't. And where is your proof of Bush cutting security prior to 9/11. Ive been all over and before 9/11 there was no security, even years ago with Clinton. None.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 8:13pm
fractus, how exactly does allowing homosexuals to marry translate into foreigners running for president? you sound like a stupid conservative who likes to throw around things that scare people, and you do so without thinking. You're the kind of person who'll say "the US is so close to communism and we don't even realize it!" You scare people into thinking the same way as you. I think that makes you, to use a popular phrase, un-American.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 8:14pm

Originally posted by Ejp414 Ejp414 wrote:

 
EDIT: By the way, it sounds to me like you are merely marching along party lines spitting out pre-written arguments. Have you ever had to deal with a situation that involves abortion? I suppose not if you're spending all your time playing the violin or the viola. Great instruments, by the way, I plan on taking violin lessons this year.

I've delt with several situations involving abortion. Does that make me a viable candidate for debate?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hashi2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 8:58pm
 Hey Dune, do yourself and the forum a favor, and go to Camp Jim (That MTV show with the **edited** dude). You need practice. Also, I have never had a GPA below 4.0, and the coaches tape the games for watching and correcting mistakes in formations/plays. Of course, a band geek like you who proofreads every post and crys about every little thing wouldn't know much about that. I hope someone locks this poll, before you spread around more crap.
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