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Kerry’s "Promises"

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Multi-Colored J View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 6:24pm
First of all, since you've undoubtedly been brainwashed by the right/church (just like I'm "media crap filled" I believe you put so eloquently), I'll try and put this in terms you can understand.

First of all, I am pro-choice, meaning that I think that abortion should be a legal option when deciding what to do with a fetus. Honestly, hashi, do you think lots of people get lots of abortions all the damn time?? Of course they don't! Most people choose to either stick it out with the kid or give them up to adoption. Secondly, I am not an advocate of abortion. I think that that's an absolute last choice option that should only be considered when all other options are exhausted, or there is no other choice. In fact, if I were faced with that choice, I would NOT get an abortion (or, rather, tell my girlfriend to get one). Does that mean that I have the right to tell people what to do with an unborn ball of cells no bigger than the size of my thumb? A small ball of cells that cannot survive on its own. Does the government have the right saying what people can do with their own bodies? Of course not!

Bush (as well as most far-right conservatives) seem to like to put a sort of a moral code on people (mostly based on the Christian Bible). They most popularly do this by taking away the rights of **edited**s (homosexuality being a no-no in the Bible) and abortion rights. Do you think it's right to have a government which is supposed to be unequivically separated from religion of any sort (you see what that did/is doing in the middle east) have leaders who very much try to put their thoughts about morality put into law? Even when it directly conflicts with the Constitution?

And about the economy, look at how the economy was under Clinton (and a democrat-controlled Congress). Now look at the economy under Bush (both before and after Clinton). Striking differences, no? Both Bush's had terrible economies and Clinton had a fantastic economy!

Oh, and by the way, I can argue, but, from your great post "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." And calling me a "crap filled idiot" doesn't exactly show your fantastic debating skills. Try attacking my posts with some facts next time, instead of just calling names. It makes you seem much more educated.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 6:29pm

Originally posted by hashi2008 hashi2008 wrote:

 Guns don't kill you stupid missinformed, media crap filled, idiot! People kill. If i misspell something, can I blame it on the pen? NO! And you can't blame the echonomy solely (or even mostly) on a President. If stupid, food stamp collecting, bum, losers would get jobs (I'm not directing this to all people without jobs), then the echonomy would be a lot better. You want an acctual arguement against Kerry, here's one I have been saving. Abortion is soo freaking wrong, especialy the later kinds. Little  who don't want to have to have babies, and screw thier whole town are using this like a safeguard. It is freaking murder! Taking things like drugs and pills that can kill a baby after knowing that you have a baby, and killing him/her is just like neglect, which you can get jail time for. So is Abortion. People keep complaining about rape victoms, well to bad! Killing a baby is just wrong, born or unborn. Those people are just sick, and I have 0 respect for anyone who supports abbortion in those ways. I would be happier if abortion was only allowed for rape victoms, but it wouldn't make everything right and moral. You people (Democrats) are always for "Rights for Everyone", well what about babies? Hypocrite turds!

Horrible....Hopefully a third strike comes out of this. Then at least there was some good to this post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hashi2008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 7:14pm

Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

First of all, since you've undoubtedly been brainwashed by the right/church (just like I'm "media crap filled" I believe you put so eloquently), I'll try and put this in terms you can understand.

First of all, I am pro-choice, meaning that I think that abortion should be a legal option when deciding what to do with a fetus. Honestly, hashi, do you think lots of people get lots of abortions all the damn time?? Of course they don't! Most people choose to either stick it out with the kid or give them up to adoption. Secondly, I am not an advocate of abortion. I think that that's an absolute last choice option that should only be considered when all other options are exhausted, or there is no other choice. In fact, if I were faced with that choice, I would NOT get an abortion (or, rather, tell my girlfriend to get one). Does that mean that I have the right to tell people what to do with an unborn ball of cells no bigger than the size of my thumb? A small ball of cells that cannot survive on its own. Does the government have the right saying what people can do with their own bodies? Of course not!

Bush (as well as most far-right conservatives) seem to like to put a sort of a moral code on people (mostly based on the Christian Bible). They most popularly do this by taking away the rights of **edited**s (homosexuality being a no-no in the Bible) and abortion rights. Do you think it's right to have a government which is supposed to be unequivically separated from religion of any sort (you see what that did/is doing in the middle east) have leaders who very much try to put their thoughts about morality put into law? Even when it directly conflicts with the Constitution?

And about the economy, look at how the economy was under Clinton (and a democrat-controlled Congress). Now look at the economy under Bush (both before and after Clinton). Striking differences, no? Both Bush's had terrible economies and Clinton had a fantastic economy!

Oh, and by the way, I can argue, but, from your great post "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." And calling me a "crap filled idiot" doesn't exactly show your fantastic debating skills. Try attacking my posts with some facts next time, instead of just calling names. It makes you seem much more educated.

 I'll put this into terms you can understand. The Constitution says that the US will not respect one religion, and Bush isn't telling anyone to be Christian. The homosexual issue is about the marriage (which people have already screwe up the whole idea of marriage), not being Christian. If homosexuals are alowed to marry, then that bends many of the concepts, which is not going to help anything. He never said that they can not be together, or that they can not have some kind of agreement to share property, children, and bind them by a contract like marriage. However, like most Liberalists, you take things out of context. You people take things the way you want them to sound/mean. As for abortion, IT IS NOT THIER FREAKING BODY!(man i wish i could yell at this guy) We are dealing a LIVING thing. Just because it cannot live on it's own doesn't make it dead, newborns can't live on thier own, but they are still people. When a baby comes out of the mother, it still is strung to her. If the doctor were to shoot it, it would be murder. If you were the size of my thumb, and I killed you, would it still be wrong? Yes. (undoubtably better for this world, but still wrong) If you were mentaly retarded to a large degree, you couldn't survive on your own, but if someone killed you, it would be murder. Now that i have pointed this out enough that even you can understand, I'll move on. the echonomy is a roller coaster. It is difficult to control, and you can't even blame 1/4th of it on the President. Frankly, 9/11 tore it to shreads. This being the case, you cant even blame 1/8th of it on the president. if Kerry were president during this time, you would be saying the same thing, and I would have to agree with you. Prove to these good people of the forum that it was his fault. You can't. Finnaly, if you want to call me brainwashed because I have morals, and wish that others did as well, see that this world is going to Hell in a handbasket (this works both ways), and people like you are handing the world over, then I guess being moral and rightous is being brainwashed. If that is true, then people who want to kill, commit crimes, and just plain out be horrid people are perfectly normal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 8:02pm

I will always be pro-choice. Making abortions illegal will just have women going to "back alley butchers" and hot coat hangers. Keeping this operation safe and sterile is the only way to go. I guess you must be against stem-cell research too because it uses baby embryos? Well...whatever. I am not a woman and could not possibly begin to explain what it would be like to be pregnant, especially if it was because of a rape. I don't think I should be able to tell a women, "oops, sorry, you must be a slut if you got pregnant and do not want to have the baby." That's just ignorant. I also think Presidents play a major role in the economy. They do not control it totally, but they do influence it with tax breaks, program reforms, and healthcare issues.



Edited by Dune
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 9:06pm
OK. I'll deal with you on several points.

1. Homosexual marriage.
It is not up to the government to decide matters of faith. What if the government were to say that you couldn't marry someone of a different faith than you? Or that you couldn't marry someone of a different race? Or from a different country? Then why is it ok for the government to say to two consenting adults that they can't get married (but maybe it'll be possible to get a "civil union") just because they happen to be of the same sex? That's ludicrous, especially when various churches allow marriage in their faiths.

2. Abortion
First of all, being a newborn baby attached to their mother's umbilical cord (or, as you so eloquently put it, is "strung to her") is ENTIRELY different than being a ball of cells the size of your thumb. As is being mentally handicapped. See, these people are not dependent, biologically speaking, on a "host." And, no, of course I wouldn't like you to have squished me (and I doubt it would be better for the world, because, frankly, I'm far more intelligent and talented than you will ever be, but that's beside the point).

3. ECONOMY (not echonomy)
Perhaps you can't blame it on the President alone. Oh, wait, I blamed it on the President AND CONGRESS! It's the government's job to make the economy a level playing ground for everyone. That means, the government has a responsibility to make it possible for a poor person to get rich, and the rich to stay rich, or whatever they desire. The President and Congress do, in fact, control a heck of a lot of the economy. They control taxes, healthcare, etc etc. Is it a coincidence that in the 8 years that Clinton was in office, the economy turned around, but, when Bush was elected, the economy went down the toilet (even before 9/11)? 9/11 may have had some of an effect on the economy, but it also had enormous potential to fix the economy, according to you. You say that people need to get off their asses and work. Well, NYC had a lot of fixing up to do post 9/11, and people did get off their asses and worked. Did it help the economy? Nah. Oh, and after Pearl Harbor, the US economy skyrocketed. (That and I love the arbitrary fractions you could said could be blamed on the President. That was really cool. I wish I could make up facts that well.)

4. The last couple sentences you wrote (oh wait, that's just a big run-on)
I see it the other way around. Going to war with an independent republic without the consent of the majority of countries around the world is wrong. Telling people they can't marry another consenting adult is wrong (even if, as you say, it "bends many of the concepts" ...whatever that means). Making an unfair economic playing field, favoring the rich above the poor, and slashing welfare and health care reforms is wrong. Oh, and yes, I think committing crimes is a bad thing. For example, driving drunk is terrible. Theft is awful! And being a public disturbance is just irresponsible. It sure is a shame that Bush was arrested three times (!) because of those things.

Edited by Multi-Colored J
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 August 2004 at 9:10pm

^^^ Give me an O

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        Give me a N

        Give me an E

        Give me a D

What's that spell......

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 12:51pm
Just waiting for a response, hashi...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:00pm
MC-J... where were you in the big Homosexuality debate a few months ago..

My personal problem with homosexual marriage, aside from me being a Christian, is that homosexuals aren't a "race". It's not discrimination if there's no major difference between them and anyone else (I don't believe that anyone is born as a homosexual).

Why should they get any special rights? Most churches won't marry them anyway.

Besides, giving them rights based on their sexual orientation is, to me, as absurd as giving a criminal rights because of the crime he or she committed.

My views on abortion are in a different thread.

My views on the war in Iraq: You assume Bush deliberatly lied. Is it not possible that he was given intelligence stating the things that he told the nation, and it was wrong? Besides, what if he was right but we did not go into Iraq? If you recall, there were all kinds of circumstances pointing to Iraq having these weapons and preparing to use them on us. If we'd stayed out of Iraq and they'd had all this stuff, you'd criticize Bush for NOT going in.

As for stem-cell research, I don't have any views on it because I haven't looked into it at all.

And for the economy point: Do you really and truly believe that something as large as the US or World economy will immediately go to pieces because one person is suddenly in charge of a country? You do know that the economy we are dealing with now is a result of the actions of all the presidents for the last 50 years or so, right? Whatever Bush's policies are that he makes or disallows, it will take somewhere around a decade, I believe, before we reap the benefits or punishments of GWB's policies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:15pm
Admiralsenn, it in fact IS discrimination against both religion and the people who want to get marreid. The government cannot dictate what churches can and cannot do, socially speaking (of course it is different if a church has all their members commit suicide or something), especially if the two people who want to marry are two consenting adults. The decision of whether the two are allowed to be married should be up to the individual church. I think that's the only way to solve the problem. I'm not saying they should get special rights, but I think it's wrong to make legislation against homosexuals just because they are different than the majority of the population (regardless of whether you believe people choose to be homosexual or not, which I'm certain they don't).

As for Iraq, there was not evidence of them having nuclear weapons, and, frankly, if they had had them, they would not have been able to launch them at the US. They simply didn't have the missile technology to hit us. So Bush saying they posed a significant threat to the US is misleading. Further, he (and the conservatives in Congress) took us to war with Iraq without the consent of the UN, which is absolutely absurd. That is why the UN was created, so no nation could unilaterally say "OK, I'm going to kill you now." That's what went wrong in WWII and consequently, the UN was created. Also, the weapons inspectors in Iraq had not completed their assessment of the arms there. Had they been able to finish, they would have reported their findings. Had they found any weapons, they would have made Iraq get rid of them.

By the way, notice how I did not criticize Bush for gonig to Afghanistan. I think that was entirely justified. But killing people and invading a country is not justified based on "What if they had weapons of mass destruction?"

As for the economy. Bush (and the conservatives who happen to be in control of Congress) have an immediate effect on the economy, especially through taxes. Bush favors a "trickle down" economic theory, which means you give tax breaks to the big businesses and the rich, adn the benefits will go to their workers in the form of higher wages and better prices. Ideally, that would work, but, unfortunately, when big corporations have huge amounts of money, they tend to want to keep it (look at Wal Mart hiring illegal immigrants and paying them practically nothing). The best way to change the economy is a "trickle up" theory, which means you give the poor/middle class lots of tax breaks and they'll buy lots more things. It's really easy, you have more money in your pocket, you're more willing to spend it, which goes to the companies, and that makes up for the higher taxes they have to pay.

That's all for the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:24pm
Im a priest. Ill marry the **edited**s myself just to spite dubya and the cult of christ people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:31pm
Who's making legislation against homosexuals? Saying they can't get married isn't changing anything that isn't already true in most places anyway.

What Bush and a lot of other people are trying to do is legally define marriage, instead of socially defining it. This is why I say that it's not discrimination against homosexuals, but allowing them to marry is giving them a special right. This goes true for allowing interracial marriages also. That is a special right, because there is in fact a difference from birth between a black person and a white person.

I already said that he probably had intelligence stating that Iraq had whatever, nuclear missiles or whatever. The fact that the intelligence was wrong does NOT mean that it's his fault.

Plus, the UN is, in my opinion, deteriorating towards uselessness. Saddam ignored UN rulings for years, and for all we know the trucks driving away from plants as inspectors came in were carrying nuclear material away to be dumped in some other country.

And which inspections didn't they finish? Saddam had only been defying the UN inspectors for a decade.. plus he was having troops shoot at UN and US aircraft in no-fly zones. It's not as if we didn't already have reason to at least give him a military reminder, much less attack.

And again, no matter what Bush says or does, it will take years if not decades for it to take effect. The economy may do what you say, but we won't know for some time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Enos Shenk Enos Shenk wrote:

Im a priest. Ill marry the **edited**s myself just to spite dubya and the cult of christ people.


Which church are you a priest in? I signed up to be a priest in the Church of Life through the mail and I too can marry people.

Edited by Hades

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaintbalSoldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:40pm

Originally posted by andyhughes andyhughes wrote:

Originally posted by DracoPlasm DracoPlasm wrote:

Yeah bush is a big fart...

 

No, Bush is actually doing a good job. Hes not my favorite president, but he's doing a lot better then Kerry will. Put Kerry in, and we will drop the war on terror and never be rid of it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:41pm
Originally posted by AdmiralSenn AdmiralSenn wrote:

Who's making legislation against homosexuals? Saying they can't get married isn't changing anything that isn't already true in most places anyway.


Hmm. Too bad it was true not to allow differnent races to marry 50 years ago. I see how that has changed for the better today.

Sure, Homosexuals are not a race of people but neither are women, or special interest groups and they get legislation in there favor all the time.

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First of all, saying that two consenting adults can't enter into a legally-binding contract taht shares their assets, etc is pretty well restricting their freedom. The government can't define who can get married, as long as the two are consenting adults. Frankly, there doesn't need to be any legislation passed to allow them to marry. That you need to leave to the individual churches. I fail to see how not letting homosexuals marry is not restricting their freedom. Various liberal sects of Christianity and Judaism, as well as Unitarian Universalism, allow homosexuals to get married, no problem. The government saying that they can't marry is directly in conflict with religious views, which is essentially saying that their individual religions are not welcome, on the whole, in this country. And about interracial marriages, I fail to see any reasoning on that one. Are you saying that a white person should only marry a white person (barring any "special rights"). What about people who are, say, 1/4 black and 3/4 white? What do they do? How about people who are of English descent? Should they not marry people of Irish descent? Because they are naturally different when they are born. What about Americans and Canadians? What about Native Americans? Eskimos? Who decides who can marry whom? I think the more important thing here is whether or not the people love each other. If two people are in love, I don't see why they can't get married, even if they don't conform to the "norms" of people who should get married. That just seems ludicrous to me.

About the intelligence. Doesn't the Commander in Chief of our armed forces have a responsibility to check his information and decide whether or not it's valid or not? I think Bush finally found a piece of information that would help his argument, so he decided not to follow up on it and make sure it was accurate.

Thirdly, if the UN is deteriorating (which I disagree with), then Bush is only helping it, because just as Saddam has ignored UN rulings, so has Bush in unilaterally going to war with Iraq.

And even if the ecnonomy doesn't take effect for years after legislation has effect, it's a widely known and respected economic theory that giving more money to the poor will make EVERYONE money, not just the upper class. Regardless, Bush is purporting a very irresponsible fiscal policy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by PaintbalSoldier PaintbalSoldier wrote:

Originally posted by andyhughes andyhughes wrote:

Originally posted by DracoPlasm DracoPlasm wrote:

Yeah bush is a big fart...

 

No, Bush is actually doing a good job. Hes not my favorite president, but he's doing a lot better then Kerry will. Put Kerry in, and we will drop the war on terror and never be rid of it.

I'm glad you can see the future...please tell us what's in store for us next oh wonderful psychic.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:06pm
I never said that people of different races shouldn't get married.. try reading what I posted again. I said (or thought I said) that unlike homosexuals, different races are in fact different from everyone else at birth, and so giving them rights is only fair. Ditto for women, because they also did not make a choice to be any particular gender or race.

And I seriously doubt that there are Christians allowing homosexuals to be married. If they are, they're part of the group of people that pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow.

And no, the Commander-in-Chief shouldn't have to check his sources himself, otherwise we wouldn't need the CIA would we? Prior to recent investigations, everyone thought our intelligence was sound and trustworthy.

And your point about Bush defying the UN goes along with what I said perfectly. I agree with you 100% on that one.

Edited by AdmiralSenn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enos Shenk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:09pm
Originally posted by Hades Hades wrote:

Originally posted by Enos Shenk Enos Shenk wrote:

Im a priest. Ill marry the **edited**s myself just to spite dubya and the cult of christ people.


Which church are you a priest in? I signed up to be a priest in the Church of Life through the mail and I too can marry people.


Im an Episkipos of the Paratheo-Anamystikhood of Eris Esoteric.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Multi-Colored J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:30pm
Admiralsenn,

Perhaps I interpreted what you said earlier other than you intended it. You said that letting homosexuals marry was a special right, which, in your ealier post, you were against letting homosexuals get amrried. Then you said that interracial marriages was a special right. (which, by the way, it isn't. I've not seen any laws that say "interracial couples must be allowed to marry" .... I think it's more along the lines of they can't be discriminated against if they go to the courthouse to get married. It's not a right so much as it is protecting their intrinsic freedom to marry).

And of course it's not his job to check intelligence, but it IS his job to tell the people all of the intelligence that he recieves, and not just the ones that help his case. For every piece of evidence saying that Saddam had WMDs, there were several pieces of evidence to the contrary. You don't go to war on a hunch.

And Dracoplasm, how exactly is Bush fighting terror? Remember his tax cut for big corporations, including airports? Well, to fund his $5000 tax cuts for airports, he (and the conservative right) decided to cut funding by HALF security programs that Clinton put in place to help airport safety. That and he is squandering most of our military resources on Iraq at the moment, which does not have any proven connections to any terrorist cells that were involved with 9/11. That and he pulled out of the Geneva Convention, and is torturing Middle Eastern prisoners. In fact, the Bush administration is doing what nobody could ever do before, he's uniting the fanatic nations/terrorist cells in a battle against the West (especially the US). DO you really think that 9/11 was intended to convert the US to Islam overnight? Of course not! Bush just played into the hands of Bin Laden all to easily. In fact, probably better than he could have imagined because now more people hate America than ever before!

Way to go, Bush!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AdmiralSenn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 August 2004 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Multi-Colored J Multi-Colored J wrote:

Admiralsenn,

Perhaps I interpreted what you said earlier other than you intended it. You said that letting homosexuals marry was a special right, which, in your ealier post, you were against letting homosexuals get amrried. Then you said that interracial marriages was a special right. (which, by the way, it isn't. I've not seen any laws that say "interracial couples must be allowed to marry" .... I think it's more along the lines of they can't be discriminated against if they go to the courthouse to get married. It's not a right so much as it is protecting their intrinsic freedom to marry).


Maybe I typed something other than what I meant. I meant that giving homosexuals rights based on the fact that they are homosexual is less justified than giving rights to different races or women, because homosexuals aren't yet conclusively proven to be born that way, and so it's not discrimination to deny someone "rights" if they aren't a race, but are instead people making a choice.
Is God real? You'll find out when you die.

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