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the states isnt that powerfull

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Ajreaper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ajreaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 3:04pm
Well according to the one site Taliban reports the number of civilian deaths was slightly more then 5,000 with approximately 10,000 wounded. The report further states actual numbers are likely one quarter of what they reported. So where do you come up with 52,000 dead? And in conflicts where combatants wear no uniforms and blend in with & hide within the civilian population determining if they were truly civilians would be very difficult. And I think without question if those numbers were even close main stream media the world over would be reporting is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RfUiLreZ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 3:15pm
Not to mention the fact that we were talking about Civilian casualties being in the 100's of thousands I believe PaintToxin said? How can that be when total casualties on both sides is like 105,000?

That's about all I have to chime in for this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DirtBomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 3:32pm

Well you could , and shoot the messenger, or you could do your own reseach. If you don't like the info why don't you see where the facts comes from. Try clicking the numbers, watch the videos, etc. You are the one who says bring the facts, well here they are, it is up to you to read and learn. I do not rely on one site I rely on many. Your uneducated, totally biased, blind eyed statements that offer no proof are pathetic. The war in not over, the reports grow and add up, I bet it will reach well over 100 000, this "war on terror".  I don't even know what points you are trying to argue, besides "You are stupid" "you are ignorant" "100 000 is not 60 000" c'mon grow-up.  Bombs and missiles kill, I am not saying that nothing needs to be done, but as you say live and learn.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min
Max
 11252
 13213

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command
Feriba, a young afghan girl, refugee in Pakistan
 
 
“Change the channel”
- Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt's advice to Iraqis who see TV images of innocent civilians killed by coalition troops.


Edited by DirtBomb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by DirtBomb DirtBomb wrote:

Originally posted by [FI [FI wrote:

]

You apparently didn't add up the numbers, did you?

One more thing...how many of them were civillians? How many were guerillas?

You don't know!

Doesn't mean much. Especially when the fact that they use thingsl ike "at least" or "estimated"

Good job on proving nothing.

Edit- At least doesn't mean anything...it means that's a general number, could be higher or lower.


— AMERICANS —
TROOPS KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN:
100   (Jan. 2004)
SERIOUSLY INJURED: 564   (Jan. 2004)

TROOPS KILLED IN IRAQ: 851   (June 2004)
SERIOUSLY INJURED: 3,018   (June 2004)

U.S. CIVILIANS KILLED IN
AFGHANISTAN [
4] AND IRAQ [37]: 41   (June 2004)
SERIOUSLY INJURED: 74   (June 2004)

— AFGHANS —
TROOPS KILLED:
8,000   (May 2003)
TROOPS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 24,000   (May 2003)

CIVILIANS KILLED: 3,421   (Feb. 2004)
CIVILIANS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 6,158   (Feb. 2004)


— U.K. & OTHER COALITION NATIONS —
TROOPS KILLED IN AFGHANISTAN:
25   (June 2004)
TROOPS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 141   (Aug. 2002)

TROOPS KILLED IN IRAQ: 117   (Feb. 2004)
TROOPS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 418   (Jan. 2004)

U.K. & OTHER COALITION CIVILIANS KILLED IN
AFGHANISTAN [
14] AND IRAQ [65]: 79   (June 2004)
SERIOUSLY INJURED: 142   (June 2004)

— IRAQIS —
TROOPS KILLED:
30,000   (April 2003)
TROOPS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 54,000   (April 2003)

CIVILIANS KILLED: 9,436   (June 2004)
CIVILIANS SERIOUSLY INJURED: 16,984   (June 2004)

Here ya go http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html you don't need to add the numbers they do it for you, mind you that is just so far...

If you want a good nation stats comparison here ya go...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/edu_gra_12_adv_stu_mat

or...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_wit_fir

Thank You Very Much.

I rest my case. Your numbers don't even match up, they are off by a huge amount between both estimates.

Agian, you prove nothing

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by DirtBomb DirtBomb wrote:

Well you could , and shoot the messenger, or you could do your own reseach. If you don't like the info why don't you see where the facts comes from. Try clicking the numbers, watch the videos, etc. You are the one who says bring the facts, well here they are, it is up to you to read and learn. I do not rely on one site I rely on many. Your uneducated, totally biased, blind eyed statements that offer no proof are pathetic. The war in not over, the reports grow and add up, I bet it will reach well over 100 000, this "war on terror".  I don't even know what points you are trying to argue, besides "You are stupid" "you are ignorant" "100 000 is not 60 000" c'mon grow-up.  Bombs and missiles kill, I am not saying that nothing needs to be done, but as you say live and learn.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min
Max
 11252
 13213

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command
Feriba, a young afghan girl, refugee in Pakistan
 
 
“Change the channel”
- Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt's advice to Iraqis who see TV images of innocent civilians killed by coalition troops.

Again the numbers differ by a huge percentage!

Don't believe everything you think

I can resist anything but temptation
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaINtToXiN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 6:48pm
Tell me is ignorance bliss?2gunsfiring_v1.gif
If my posts seem strange it is because dial-up gives me too much time to think.

A-5, Flatilizer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 6:49pm

Originally posted by PaINtToXiN PaINtToXiN wrote:

Tell me is ignorance bliss?2gunsfiring_v1.gif

What, can you not count?

Don't believe everything you think

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2004 at 9:47pm
None of your numbers match up. Nothing more really needs to be said, but I will continue for a bit more.

I did, in fact, read a large percentage of those two links you gave (probably about 70% of them)... There's no need to read a 20+ page article that isn't proving anything. From the beginning, the author was biased, and throughout the entire "dossier," he just said, "___ were killed. We don't have proof, but you don't have proof that they weren't!"
I'm not quite sure WHY you though that I wouldn't read the links. Perhaps you have not read my posts. I read, I watch the news, and I research. Are you going to tell me that YOU read the entire first link?

Do you know that it says that the United States should not have gone to war in Afghanistan? That is one of the singal most ridiculous pieces of "evidence" that I have ever read.

If any of your numbers were remotely close... say 1000 apart or so... I MIGHT be willing to research more closely. The simple fact that one of your sources said 52000, and the others said 13,000 or under 10,000 shows their lack of reliability.

PaintToxin: Exactly whom are you asking about ignorance? I certainly hope it's not me. I am far more knowledgeable than you can imagine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PaINtToXiN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 10:28am

Are 30 000 dead Iraqis troops guilty for defending their land, or the 54, 000 you seriously wounded? Does 8 000 dead afghan troops and 24 000 seriously wounded make up for 1 mans actions? Or are you actually proud of the 13000+ innocents killed, including women and children? Or the 20 000+ innocents seriously injured? Yes those are all conservative numbers, and it sounds like you, and your fellow americans are a little upset by them. I don't blame you, I blame you leadership.

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

Do you know that it says that the United States should not have gone to war in Afghanistan?.

Gee really.  Good.

The accuracy of those numbers are not far off, especially since some would consider the men that simply defended their country as innocent. If you choose to miss the whole point that is okay.

Really though, to each their own. If you don't want to think that killing is wrong, than you can think it is right, and have fun doing it!

If my posts seem strange it is because dial-up gives me too much time to think.

A-5, Flatilizer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fallout_soldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 10:36am

why would canada go an extra 6.5 trillion in debt to get an army they dont need?


                              Canada
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=atomicbomb.wmv
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 10:46am
Originally posted by PaINtToXiN PaINtToXiN wrote:

Are 30 000 dead Iraqis troops guilty for defending their land, or the 54, 000 you seriously wounded? Yes, I single-handily wounded 54,000 men...I did it right here from my computer too!

Does 8 000 dead afghan troops and 24 000 seriously wounded make up for 1 mans actions? Yes...what kind of question is that? What happens if you take out one man? Someone fills the void. Think about gangs- the guys at the bottom just want to get by, but when the police come knocking...everyone goes to prison. This is fact, please don't try to dispute this with me. I've seen first hand.

Or are you actually proud of the 13000+ innocents killed, including women and children? Or the 20 000+ innocents seriously injured? Yes those are all conservative numbers, and When compared to the volume of firepower...yes. Can't debate my personal feelings with me either.

it sounds like you, and your fellow americans are a little upset by them. I don't blame you, I blame you leadership. Not really, considering with the volume of firepower we've used, those numbers are very low...in fact, I don't even believe them.

The accuracy of those numbers are not far off, So which one is it, 10,000 or 13,000 or 52,000 and then show proof that the number you have given in +/- 1,000. This cnanot be debated, the accuracy of the numbers is not...accurate givn the variation of these counts.

especially since some would consider the men that simply defended their country as innocent. If you choose to miss the whole point that is okay.

The US is simply defending it's country...our soldiers are fighting for thier nation so they too are innocent. This too is fact if you would like this statement to hold any water.

Really though, to each their own. If you don't want to think that killing is wrong, than you can think it is right, and have fun doing it!

What country are you from? Canada? So what about the men you killed in WWII? The Germans were simple men, defending their nation. So your countrymen were murderers and mass killers. Gee...good.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote munky! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 11:48am
America isnt doing bodycounts because they dont want people to know the real number.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 11:56am

Originally posted by munky! munky! wrote:

America isnt doing bodycounts because they dont want people to know the real number.

Or maybe because:

A. We don't really care

B. It doesn't matter, they're gone

C. It isn't a good way to measure the costs

D. All of the above

(The correct answer is D. All of the above, by the way)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 12:13pm
America isn't doing any body counts because it would be impossible to do so.

You ought to remember things brought to light about Vietnamese "body counts." Every night on TV, it would report the number of Vietnamese killed each night. By the end of the war, the total of the numbers was great enough that the entire Vietnamese population would have been killed multiple times.
That's exactly what those reports look like to me, except from the other side.

If you don't believe we should have gone into Afghanistan, then there is something truly wrong with you. Not only do you not want people to go into war as a pre-emptive action, but when they go in AFTER being attacked, you call it wrong.
You are truly an imbecile.

If someone attacked Canada, you wouldn't be willing to go and fight them? If not, you are not worthy of the scum on a soldier's boot. What will you fight for, if not the security of your fellow countrymen?

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is
much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable
creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the
exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill

^That applies to you. (PaintToxin)


Edited by Bunkered
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote High Voltage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 12:23pm
/me sicks his sig upon PaintToxin...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 12:40pm

Originally posted by Bunkered Bunkered wrote:

America isn't doing any body counts because it would be impossible to do so.

You ought to remember things brought to light about Vietnamese "body counts." Every night on TV, it would report the number of Vietnamese killed each night. By the end of the war, the total of the numbers was great enough that the entire Vietnamese population would have been killed multiple times.
That's exactly what those reports look like to me, except from the other side.

If you don't believe we should have gone into Afghanistan, then there is something truly wrong with you. Not only do you not want people to go into war as a pre-emptive action, but when they go in AFTER being attacked, you call it wrong.
You are truly an imbecile.

If someone attacked Canada, you wouldn't be willing to go and fight them? If not, you are not worthy of the scum on a soldier's boot. What will you fight for, if not the security of your fellow countrymen?

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is
much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable
creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the
exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill

^That applies to you. (PaintToxin)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote munky! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by [FI [FI wrote:

]

Originally posted by munky! munky! wrote:

America isnt doing bodycounts because they dont want people to know the real number.


Or maybe because:


A. We don't really care


B. It doesn't matter, they're gone


C. It isn't a good way to measure the costs


D. All of the above


(The correct answer is D. All of the above, by the way)



so your saying you dont care that americains killed 10,000 , 12,000 or 52,000 civilians. and it dosnt matter.

so if its not a good way to measure the costs what is? and why would you even say that its not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote [FI] Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 1:05pm
Originally posted by munky! munky! wrote:

Originally posted by [FI [FI wrote:

]

Originally posted by munky! munky! wrote:

America isnt doing bodycounts because they dont want people to know the real number.


Or maybe because:


A. We don't really care


B. It doesn't matter, they're gone


C. It isn't a good way to measure the costs


D. All of the above


(The correct answer is D. All of the above, by the way)



so your saying you dont care that americains killed 10,000 , 12,000 or 52,000 civilians. and it dosnt matter.

so if its not a good way to measure the costs what is? and why would you even say that its not?

Nope, not really. Not me, not my people, not my family, not my friends...don't give a crap. When it begins happening to me/people that I love/Americans I might begin to care.

It's not simply because...you don't know the future. When it's all said and done, the historians will judge and we'll know. But until then, we can't measure progress by the amount of lives lost nor can be put a price on freedom. If that boggles your mind, it's probably because your ancestors didn't fight the British.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bunkered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 7:05pm
I DO care that civilians are killed... But I believe that they are minimal compared to the numbers stated. I also believe that consistency of information is important. Your case would hold no water in a courtroom.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ajreaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 July 2004 at 10:38pm
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is
much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight,
nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable
creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the
exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill

What an outstanding quote! Pretty much says it all. One innocent life lost is to many- that's the truth. wars are terrible things, they cause great destruction and bring great pain to both the victor and the vanquished. I find it Ironic that here in America we will lose almost 50,000 people to automoblie accidents the vast majority of which are preventable. People just need to slow down and wear a seat belt and we'd put a terrific dent in that number and the coorsponding economic consquences associated with those collisions- no one writes letters to the editor, no one protests or has rallies. Heck people actually complain about DUI check points set up to get drunks off the road and keep the non drinking driver safe- we humans are sometimes so stupid and short sighted it makes one wonder how we made it this far. Or if we deserve to make it much further.

Edited by Ajreaper
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