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Topic ClosedDo you think "snipers" are real?

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Poll Question: Do you think "snipers" are real?
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SR_Crewchief View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 11:09am
I see that it's time for an educational document...again.

Read and Learn.

First some basics need to be established. The game is paintball and for the purposes of this class it is played in the woods where the terrain dictates that youíll be engaging each other most of the time at between 20 and 25 meters. (In other words close range) It is played most often by 2 opposing sides of roughly equal size. For all intent and purposes this game is modeled on military small unit combat.

Now several you are going "whoo hoo, my kind of sniper country"Öwithout knowing what makes a sniper. Many of you have gone to the dictionary and found a reference saying something to the effect that a sniper is someone who fires from concealment and have used this a your basis for your claim to being one in paintball. That's all well and dandy, except you ignore the rest of the definition.

snip∑er ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sn p r)n. A skilled military shooter detailed to spot and pick off enemy soldiers from a concealed place. One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Source: The American Heritageģ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Now youíll note that this expanded definition is still quite general in it scope, after all anyone who squats behind bush to fire is a sniper which is not the case.

So, since the dictionary has not resolved this we must consult the experts for a better definition of what makes a sniper in our chosen environment. It happens that Iíve had the opportunity to do just that from time to time in my 22 years in the Army.

In summary here are the extreme basics of what is an effective sniper:
∑ A superior marksman
∑ Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment
∑ The ability to approach the target without being detected
∑ Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire
∑ The ability to engage the target without revealing your position
∑ The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

The first three of these points are possible in the game of paintball, but do not make you a sniper, they just take some training and practice.

Letís look at them one at a time.

A superior marksman

Basically someone whoís shooting skills are well above that of the average player. No big problem here, skill levels very, some people are just plain better than others.

Expert knowledge in the art camouflage for concealment

This one is a little tougher. It takes knowledge of what will fool the eye into not seeing what is really there. Itís still doable though. Trained military have an advantage over the someone whose camouflage skills are solely based on hunting. Not because the non-military hunter is any less skilled but because of who the camouflage is intended to fool. But once armed with the knowledge of what the differences are this isnít even a problem. So, yes this can be effectively applied to paintball.

The ability to approach the target without being detected

This one is a bigger problem. If just taken as being able to move close enough to a player that is already in place to make your shot undetected is very difficult. Since instinctively humans are hunters, our attention is automatically drawn to movement or things that are out of place. Itís takes someone that is extremely skilled in moving undected to pull this one off. But I have seen it done.

I should add to this the ability to setup a position that provides an undetected position from which to shoot that covers an area you expect your opponent to move through. A basic ambush.

Both require an undetected shooting position and can be effectively applied to paintball depending on skill level


The last three points are where the concept of a sniper in paintball fails.

Engage the target from beyond effective range of return fire

No matter what you do, as long as everyone has the same approximate muzzle velocity, everyone has about the same effective range. Yes, that means Flatlines too. While Flatlines do have the ability, do to an aerodynamic backspin, shoot farther than other barrel systems the paintball still loses velocity at the same rate. What this means is that a paintball from a flatline loses the energy to break its shell at the same rate as one fired from a conventional barrel. The advantage of the flatline is initial flat trajectory that paintball has, which allows someone to fire under foliage that would otherwise break the ball. (The first failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to engage the target without revealing your position

Since the effective range is around 20-25m means that when you fire you have effectively revealed your general position. What I mean is this. Your shooting from such a close range that either the pop of your ball leaving the barrel or the sound of your bolt cycling (or both) will give your general position away to anyone with average hearing as far away as 40m. Unless you are only engaging 1 or 2 people or are extremely lucking you yourself can now be effectively counted as a mission kill. (The second failed point in being an effective sniper)

The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

What this means is the ability move to a new shooting position after having engaged a target without being detected and counter-engaged your self. Since itís been demonstrated that you canít effectively engage a target without revealing your initial shooting position and exposing yourself to effective counter fire this one automatically fails. (The third failed point in being an effective sniper)



Now just because you canít effectively apply all of the above tactics of what makes an effective sniper doesnít mean that the first 3 listed canít be applied to paintball. Do they make you a sniper? No. But they do give you the ability to setup an effective close ambush. Just a word of advice here, bring along several friends and you might even be effective at it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 12:08pm
Excellent post, its nice to see an educated opinion in the argument for once, although i will slightly disagree with you on the last 2 points.

The ability to engage the target without revealing your position

There are a few barrels out there that are considerably quieter than others, and if using them in conjunction with only firing 2-3 rounds MAX you can conceal your position. I myself use a J&J Ceramic Barrel and have had many people comment on the fact that unless they were right on top of me they could barely hear it, and could not pinpoint my location. There have been many times where i've fired 2 rounds and taken out my mark, and suddenly his teammates rush to the spot i hit him and blidly law down grazing fire in the general direction that i'm located at. There have even been times where they've shot at a completly different area then where i was it alltogether.

The ability to egress the area after successfully engaging the target without being positively identified and engaged

Following what i said for your 5th point. If you have used a quiet barrel and only shot 2-3 rounds, and you are in a situation like i've just described, you can use conceled movement to egress the area and move to your next shooing point. I do it alot, where i've shot one, the rest of the team are blidly shooting in my area, and i egress move to a new point, and take out another one.

Now obviously alot of this is dependant as you said on how well you can move without detection, but i'm in the military and have quite a bit of expierience at camoflague and evasion tactics, so alot of this comes naturally to me now. Also the other major factor is how quiet you marker is, if you marker is loud this ain't going to work. and finally, the terrain is always going to be a huge factor in whether or not this is going to work.

The bottom line is your expierience at stealth, your marker, and the terrain will always determine whether sniping is possible on a woods field, sometimes it will work, sometimes it will not.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 6:42pm
First off, the first mistake you are making as an amateur is assuming since you are in the military this comes "naturally". Infantry for 23years and I still work on the skills, and if you are not trained and or have operated in the "ways of old" the new military no longer teaches the fundimentals of what we learned years ago. Close Combat is totally and real bullets are totally differant than what most of todays military is trained for, and Small Unit Tactics unless you are a Ranger, or Recon is a forgotten art.

Second....no matter how quiet you marker is, a good "reaction drill" will quickly identify and isolate said shooter if he is dumb enough to fire more than one round. Sound no matter how faint can be isolated with the second shot, and an expierienced leaders first question if he is on the recieving end is "Where would I be to shoot me here" and wala there you are, for paintball markers have very limited fields of fire and fire lanes since they can not cut brush and need more of an arc to accomplish range.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 6:48pm
you can go and wait for 2 hours for someone to walk buy and try to hit them or you could have fun and get in the action.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 6:52pm

I hate it when pple think that just because they only have 20 posts means they are a n00b. Hate to burst your bubble but Im sure theyre are players out their that have played for years and only visit this site once in a great while.

Ive talked to multi year vets of paintball and I mentioned these forums and they have never heard of them.

Post count does not equal pro or newb. Get over yourself.

Back on subject, yes I believe there are snipers in paintball as by definition.

Have a nice day.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 6:53pm
Originally posted by Menohl Menohl wrote:



Following what i said for your 5th point. If you have used a quiet barrel and only shot 2-3 rounds, and you are in a situation like i've just described, you can use conceled movement to egress the area and move to your next shooing point. I do it alot, where i've shot one, the rest of the team are blidly shooting in my area, and i egress move to a new point, and take out another one.

Now obviously alot of this is dependant as you said on how well you can move without detection, but i'm in the military and have quite a bit of expierience at camoflague and evasion tactics, so alot of this comes naturally to me now. Also the other major factor is how quiet you marker is, if you marker is loud this ain't going to work. and finally, the terrain is always going to be a huge factor in whether or not this is going to work.

The bottom line is your expierience at stealth, your marker, and the terrain will always determine whether sniping is possible on a woods field, sometimes it will work, sometimes it will not.





If you can find a paintball gun that fires three shots without being heard, then you deserve to be called a sniper.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 7:02pm

Originally posted by KillerCanuk KillerCanuk wrote:

There are paintball snipers, but they're not guys that hang back at the end of a field and drop paint between the eyes of their opponents on the other side.

Paintball snipers are the guys that sneak around so well, that you walk right past them and dont even know they are there, until you get a few quietly placed shots on your back.

Thats at real paintball sniper.

LOL I sit in the bush in a ghillies suit and get mostly 1 shot kills, however I do move around the field. I dont camp and wait for the target, I go hunt them. I sit in wait only while im lining up my shot and while i wait to mercy people( cheap players who need a little humiliation) I have been stepped on while hidding and the other team didnt know I was there until i shot 2 of them in the back



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by ghostguy6 ghostguy6 wrote:

Originally posted by KillerCanuk KillerCanuk wrote:

There are paintball snipers, but they're not guys that hang back at the end of a field and drop paint between the eyes of their opponents on the other side.

Paintball snipers are the guys that sneak around so well, that you walk right past them and dont even know they are there, until you get a few quietly placed shots on your back.

Thats at real paintball sniper.

LOL I sit in the bush in a ghillies suit and get mostly 1 shot kills, however I do move around the field. I dont camp and wait for the target, I go hunt them. I sit in wait only while im lining up my shot and while i wait to mercy people( cheap players who need a little humiliation) I have been stepped on while hidding and the other team didnt know I was there until i shot 2 of them in the back



umm k...you must play with blind people...


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by ghostguy6 ghostguy6 wrote:

Originally posted by KillerCanuk KillerCanuk wrote:

There are paintball snipers, but they're not guys that hang back at the end of a field and drop paint between the eyes of their opponents on the other side.

Paintball snipers are the guys that sneak around so well, that you walk right past them and dont even know they are there, until you get a few quietly placed shots on your back.

Thats at real paintball sniper.

LOL I sit in the bush in a ghillies suit and get mostly 1 shot kills, however I do move around the field. I dont camp and wait for the target, I go hunt them. I sit in wait only while im lining up my shot and while i wait to mercy people( cheap players who need a little humiliation) I have been stepped on while hidding and the other team didnt know I was there until i shot 2 of them in the back

in your sig, what is your "custom made barrel" j/w
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:29pm
why do these thread still continue?

Why cant it be settle for once?

I vote yes!!!
It Is What It Is

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:39pm
NO SUCH THING AS PAINTBALL SNIPERS!!!!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:40pm
Originally posted by metal_monster87 metal_monster87 wrote:

NO SUCH THING AS PAINTBALL SNIPERS!!!!!!


such a valid argument. I particulary enjoyed reading your third point. Oh wait...

support it dude
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:41pm

Originally posted by oreomann33 oreomann33 wrote:

you can go and wait for 2 hours for someone to walk buy and try to hit them or you could have fun and get in the action.

I Agree with you... I tryed that hiding stuff its fun for the first five sec. but then you get bored... and if you miss that most important Shot then your S.O.L.

And there are no "Snipers" just really great Ambushes...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2004 at 8:41pm
Originally posted by DeathFromAfar DeathFromAfar wrote:

yes...there are snipers in paintball...if u would go back to the roots of paintball then u would know that...the problem is that there are to many people that pick up a paintball gun and go out and start shoting ppl and think that they are players...trust me...they may play the game but they know nothing about its past and how public paintball got started

snipers are real in paintball...the term sniper refers to a style of play that takes a long time to get good at, im not gona say how to become a sniper...ull have to figure it out on your own

So you ask our opinion and essentially call us ignorant for giving it to you? Rela mature...nice way of trolling, go back to living alone under your bridge.

Edit- I love how one of your supports for an argument is "trust me". Good job, I'm sure you changed a lot of peoples' minds



Edited by Shut Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 6:06am
It is rather funny, a "kid" lecturing a few of us on the roots of the game. Since a few of us here have been playing since the beginning....when it was real paint, a tube of 10 balls cost $2.50 and your 12 gram got you 30 shots, but you still had CO2 left because we had SKILL, and did not need to repaint the woodline for a single hit.

And yes the game started as a "wargame" where we hunted each other, played "army" and had fun, tourneys were played in the woods, no fancy "clown suits", no corperate sponsors, no blow up doll cover, just a few people out having fun for the games sake, not what we have today.

So lecture on there kid, you do not have a clue, and for those of us "older" folks who actually have a skill to referance what we speak of, we pretty much can say that the skill of sniping has little or no point of referance in this game. Just a bunch of kids with little self worth giving themselves a name to feel better about themselves and to believe in thier mind that they are just a little better than the troop next to em. Still have not heard or seen you sniper types differentiate between what you call sniping and standard one each infantry techniques as applied to the game.

Lets see, I wear camo, I use a 40rd hopper, a 4oz bottle, and a WG65A1 and have a higher elimination rate than most, use cover and concealment to my advantage, use accurate select fire on my targets, and per most of my Teammates can "vanish" before thier eyes, and most importantly I "Lead by example", in front, that gentleman is the mark of an INFANTRYMAN, our motto is "Follow Me" as we advance foward, and as TEAM player, all the rest of this individual stuff is just crap. And when we do play when I do see our "Teams" ghillied wonder, or a claim that "I will snipe" from here, I immediate reduce my TEAMS foward combat power by the number of idiots with that perception and concept of play accordingly. And vice versa when we run into the enemy "loner" I can reduce the threat to my team by again the corresponding number of idiots with that perception.

Edited by oldsoldier
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 6:46am
Menohl,

As OS pointed out, your not the only trooper out here. I retired last year with 22 years service. No I'm not infantry ora trained sniper like OS and others, but I am a trained NCO. That means that I'm versed in basic small unit tactics and can teach the same, and that is all that is really needed to organize an effect presensce of the paintball field.

Not putting you down, just putting a couple of things into perspective.

Now about quiet shooting. Yes, the J&J is relatively quiet. But if you've taken 2-3 shots and haven't been localized by the group your shooting at I'd call that either luck or lack of disipline and skill on the part of your opposition. I have both the Armson Stealth and the J&J Ceramic. I wouldn't expect to not be localized if I were to take 2-3 shots from within effective range.

I will grant that if you can avoid being localized after taking your shot, for what ever reason, and the opposition isn't beating the bushing looking for you, you've got about an even chance of egressing. I wouldn't count on that happening everything though, not even the majority of the time. The only real flaw I see in your arguement is that it appears that you expect to face opponents with little or no tactical skills. What you should be doing is operating with the idea that you'll be facing equal or superior skills while working to bring your teammates skills up at the same time.


In the ambush that you described, wouldn't it have been more effective if you were part of a fire team or short squad instead of being an individual? What I'm getting at is teach a small group to work as a team. Learn how to set effective hasty ambushes as a group instead of looking for the optimal location for an individual. By doing it this way it makes each of you more effective. It doesn't heard that it's also a lot more fun! ;)

For most of the rest of you, Menohl made an intelligent reply. He commented on what he sees as wrong in my post, but he also supported his arguement with why. That is what this forum is supposed to be about. An exchange of ideas to help make this game better. Instead of making the standard "Yo Mama" and "trust me" posts/replies, think it through, write it down, and support it. You will gain a lot more respect doing it that why. Try to use supportable facts and knowledge instead of opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 8:01am
of coarse there are snipers, my grandfather was "sniper" or sharp shooter back in the day
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 8:42am
Originally posted by jigglydude jigglydude wrote:

Originally posted by ghostguy6 ghostguy6 wrote:

Originally posted by KillerCanuk KillerCanuk wrote:

There are paintball snipers, but they're not guys that hang back at the end of a field and drop paint between the eyes of their opponents on the other side.

Paintball snipers are the guys that sneak around so well, that you walk right past them and dont even know they are there, until you get a few quietly placed shots on your back.

Thats at real paintball sniper.

LOL I sit in the bush in a ghillies suit and get mostly 1 shot kills, however I do move around the field. I dont camp and wait for the target, I go hunt them. I sit in wait only while im lining up my shot and while i wait to mercy people( cheap players who need a little humiliation) I have been stepped on while hidding and the other team didnt know I was there until i shot 2 of them in the back

in your sig, what is your "custom made barrel" j/w

It's basically a homemade version of the progressive 14" with a slight bend similar to the flatlines to add about an extra 60ft of travel. It was a b*tch to make but it was sure worth it. Ill post some pics when I get it back from being anodized



Edited by ghostguy6


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 9:44am
OS, you swithched from Tippmann to Armotech? I really enjoy reading these types of threads it gives me a better sense of the game when Old Soldier explains What paintball is really about. And what it isnt.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2004 at 10:02am
Originally posted by evil_fingers evil_fingers wrote:

But, fer those who still wont believe it, then this thread will go on and on and on.........



Right...

Ok, there is a DVD about it. Once again, there are many santa DVD's out there, and guess what? He still doesn't exist.

"fer those who still won't believe it."

There is a very good reason behind this though. Its a one sided arguement really. The only person that has intellegently argued for snipers is Menohl. All the other people fighting for snipers is just throwing in random arguements.

The arguements are just like their "sniper" tactics. They are loner points. THis is gonna sound really dumb, but they argue like they play paintball, alone.

Notice all the anti-sniper points go along with the discussion and they are all working as a team. OS comes back with his long posts refuting yours, and then other people back him up. OS backs other people up with his extensive knowledge.

Most of the reasons for snipers in here are so random that I have no idea where they came from.

I do Manohl though for his efforts.
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